1. whmurray's Avatar
    Even if it does not kill . It has definitely ignited fire under the Palm executive's ..( You know what , i mean ) big time........
    Is this a speculation on your part or can you cite evidence? The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.

    Handspring really is dead; Palm killed it. The last innovation in the product line, the Treo 600, took place under Handspring management. Palm has shipped only a few variations on this basic design.

    I have been a Palm customer since the Palm III. I have been a Handspring customer since the Visor. I have purchased no fewer than 8 POS products. Since I have purchased POS products from at least three corporate entities and one or two distributors, I suppose it is fair to say that my loyalty is to POS rather than Palm.

    While I did buy a 650 and while I am now happy with it, it was a very difficult upgrade. While it fixed a few 600 limitations, it introduced a number of problems of its own. While Palm has fixed the most egregious problems with the 650, it has announced no products since the 600 that I have caught my imagination.

    While I can no longer say that I wish Palm well, I do not wish them ill. However, I have lost hope and can identify no hopeful scenarios.

    I think that it is a little much to hope that a new product that, no matter how innovative, Palm does not see as competition, can inject creativity where there is none. While I believe that competition is powerful and that the market is as close to magic as we have, there are limits to what they can do.
    01-15-2007 12:04 PM
  2. Malatesta's Avatar
    The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.
    Slightly OT but not...

    What Ed Colligan really said in response to the question was:

    The question didn't actually focus on Apple. Colligan was asked about all of the new competitors who might be entering the market: Apple, Google talking about free phones and hiring Andy Rubin of Danger, and so on. "The phone market could look intensely crowded."

    Colligan's response: "It's also intensely big, we just have to get our fair share." "Let me tell you this, it's not as easy as it looks." He cited the Motorola Q as an example -- it was supposed to take over the world but didn't. "I just would caution people that think they're going to walk in here and do these.... I don't think it'll be so easy as everybody thinks. It's a tough space...I'm not trying to be cocky about it. It is a tough business. We've really struggled through that." "We struggled for years figuring out how to make a decent phone."
    source

    (I'm just tired of the "ed colligan laughed off the iPhone" meme)
    01-15-2007 01:04 PM
  3. TazUk's Avatar
    Macs work as advertised.
    Yep they never, ever go wrong

    iPods work as advertised.
    And they've never had any issues with build quality or battery life

    And no I don't have a problem with Apple or hate any of their products it's just some people seem to look at them through rose coloured spectacles
    01-15-2007 01:15 PM
  4. Iceman6's Avatar
    The Treo is a great email/SMS messaging device. The iPhone is an iPod with a built-in phone. iPhone is not going to kill Treo, it's just going to limit its growth. iPhone is a Sony Walkman phone killer.
    01-15-2007 01:27 PM
  5. CGK#IM's Avatar
    "We struggled for years figuring out how to make a decent phone."

    is the more truthful version of that - "we bought in a good design and have just coasted with it since - the biggest innovation has been running someone's else's OS on the device - an OS we expect to account for the majority of our sales in the near future".
    01-15-2007 01:43 PM
  6. cjdaniel's Avatar
    Palm has fixed the issues with WM, WM5 is looking more like Palm. If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.

    I am not sure I would not welcome a Microsoft takeover, and I don't consider that the death of Palm.

    I would never have considered a WM phone before, but with Secret Sauce the 750 is looking really good to me.

    I have been a staunch POS supporter, but consider the seamless integration possible with a hot new phone and WM6/Vista...

    If they could get the hardware right, that would do the same thing to iphone that Pc's have been doing to Mac's for years.

    I would only hope for an innovative team at MS that is exclusively focused on phones...
    01-15-2007 01:51 PM
  7. specimen38's Avatar
    WH & Mtreo,

    I think we are saying the same thing in some respects. A Tsunami has struck and the waves will hit shore in June when the iPhone is release. Palm can either sink (=die), swim (=go it alone) or jump on life preserver (=Microsoft).

    I think WH's analysis of swim from the original HandSpring innovation to Palm's incremental modifications over the past 4-5 years is a great point. The poor guys over at Palm have been conservative and trying to keep their customers happy by not innovating on what we all agreed is a great form factor. Unfortunately, they had everything to lose if they changed the form factor and the success formula of the software integrated with it. I simply swimming alone by Palm will result in sinking.

    Mtreo, I think your point about competition is fitting for this moment in Palm's history. It is healthy, but they can't ever do any of the old stuff ever again. Not the software or the form factor. It's a new day!

    There are a lot of closed minded persons posting, who think Apple is a second rate company. What many don't know is that a quiet transition has occured and we are in the Post-PC era. Those who criticize the iPod and now the iPhone have lived in the components world of electronics in lifestyle integration, but that way of doing business will gradually be dimished, but will not completely go away. Read - End to End versus Components Approach

    The pundits ask, "what about 3rd party developers and the iPhone?" The old components approach is dependent on 3rd parties to write software that you have to continually upgrade when the OS upgrades while no one takes responsibility when things don't work together. The end to end approach increases the liklihood working software by providing a suite of base (killer app) products that work before a device is sold. I am certain Apple will invite the 3rd party developers into the "party" at an appropriate time when it can be certain bugs can be isolated in on a stable OS and reduced to a minimal, which makes the customer experience so much better.

    Big picture = iPhone is here to stay and each new iteration of its design will introduce revolutionary advances -- just as we saw with the iPod. Every power, consumer and casual user has something wonderful to look forward to.






    Even if it does not kill . It has definitely ignited fire under the Palm executive's ..( You know what , i mean ) big time.
    Competition is healthy for consumers. Palm has no excuse in selling old technology and saying this the best that can be done , take it or leave it . Most of the time we would bend down and buy. No more of that nonsense.
    They have to come out with a competeing product soon, or they are dead.
    Is this a speculation on your part or can you cite evidence? The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.

    Handspring really is dead; Palm killed it. The last innovation in the product line, the Treo 600, took place under Handspring management. Palm has shipped only a few variations on this basic design.

    I have been a Palm customer since the Palm III. I have been a Handspring customer since the Visor. I have purchased no fewer than 8 POS products. Since I have purchased POS products from at least three corporate entities and one or two distributors, I suppose it is fair to say that my loyalty is to POS rather than Palm.

    While I did buy a 650 and while I am now happy with it, it was a very difficult upgrade. While it fixed a few 600 limitations, it introduced a number of problems of its own. While Palm has fixed the most egregious problems with the 650, it has announced no products since the 600 that I have caught my imagination.

    While I can no longer say that I wish Palm well, I do not wish them ill. However, I have lost hope and can identify no hopeful scenarios.

    I think that it is a little much to hope that a new product that, no matter how innovative, Palm does not see as competition, can inject creativity where there is none. While I believe that competition is powerful and that the market is as close to magic as we have, there are limits to what they can do.
    01-15-2007 02:09 PM
  8. specimen38's Avatar
    Yes, precisely!!!!!!!

    Palm has fixed the issues with WM, WM5 is looking more like Palm. If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.

    I am not sure I would not welcome a Microsoft takeover, and I don't consider that the death of Palm.

    I would never have considered a WM phone before, but with Secret Sauce the 750 is looking really good to me.

    I have been a staunch POS supporter, but consider the seamless integration possible with a hot new phone and WM6/Vista...

    If they could get the hardware right, that would do the same thing to iphone that Pc's have been doing to Mac's for years.

    I would only hope for an innovative team at MS that is exclusively focused on phones...
    01-15-2007 02:13 PM
  9. robkz's Avatar
    Here is my .02. IPhone will market their product better than palm has with the treo. But the product itself does not appear to innovate in any way short of the concept of having a very large screen and absolutely no buttons. I see the value in a great screen. That is clearly what is missing with our palm. For us in the know, having wifi on a device that has hi speed access to the internet and the possibility of an unlimited data plan means almost nothing. We have a unit that is an MP3 player, works behind firewalls and syncs with email servers, handles pop email flawlessly, has a decent little camera, handles push email, text messaging, instant messaging, allows you to stream video and xm radio, can be used as a gps navigation unit with the right software, uses the infared functionality to apparently help realtors in some way or control my remote control. Also, you can tap into your computer at the office with a vpn thing and look at your screen, open files on that computer and review them if necessary. Bottom line, this treo works in some amazing ways and if it were to come out today for the first time in its current form, it would be the absolute end of the iphone (assuming the two companies changed lifespans here and apple was making iphones for as long as palm has with the treo). I admit...the screen looked beautiful and i want that. But just imagine holding it up to your ear and getting that face grease all over it. Nasty and frankly not a great fit.

    My guess is Apple hits a homerun in terms of sales in the first 6 months with this unit. But to innovate is to do more than introduce a bigger screen and the same things that exist now in our phone minus a bunch of stuff. the lack of open source software will be a big problem long term.
    01-15-2007 02:32 PM
  10. Malatesta's Avatar
    If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.
    Small point of contention: Wm5 can definitely do 480x480 and 640x480 resolutions (VGA) in fact there are handful of devices out there that already do this.

    Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens for two reasons (actually one): cost

    1) 480x480 screens are just more expensive
    2) they wanted to keep the hardware the same between the 700P/700w(x) to keep manufacturing costs down--which incidentally resulted in issues for the 700p (see memory)

    also

    3) battery life since more juice would be needed

    So that possibility exists today but it is up to device manufactures to opt for it.
    01-15-2007 02:46 PM
  11. marcol's Avatar
    Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens for two reasons (actually one): cost

    1) 480x480 screens are just more expensive
    2) they wanted to keep the hardware the same between the 700P/700w(x) to keep manufacturing costs down--which incidentally resulted in issues for the 700p (see memory)
    No. 700p: 320x320. 700w(x): 240x240. They have different screens.

    http://www.palm.com/us/products/smar...00p/specs.html
    http://www.palm.com/us/products/smar...00w/specs.html
    01-15-2007 03:12 PM
  12. whmurray's Avatar
    Yep they never, ever go wrong



    And they've never had any issues with build quality or battery life

    And no I don't have a problem with Apple or hate any of their products it's just some people seem to look at them through rose coloured spectacles
    You forgot to mention iTunes.

    I recently had to rebuild a PC. Every application had an issue. I was particularly concerned about iTunes/iPod, in part because of DRM, in part, because I am a PC person and never found iTunes very intuitive.

    In this experience I learned that my problem was that I kept looking for the manual controls to do what iTunes planned to automagically in any case. When I first re-installed the software from the CD, nothing looked as I expected. Not only did I not see my music, podcasts, and audiobooks on the PC but they mysteriously disappeared from my iPod. In my panic, I probably did all kinds of things to make the problem worse. Finally, I simply gave up.

    Then a miracle happened. Slowly the system began to heal itself. It began to report that, not only were things not as I expected them, but not as it expected them. It would offer remedies, most of which I could not interpret. As my trust grew, I simply responded "yes" to its offers. Miracle of miracles, both my PC and my iPod slowly returned to their normal state.

    In spite of all my inept attempts to control it, it never locked up or lost anything.

    I now appreciate the observation that iTunes is the best piece of software ever built for MS Windows (Well, Quicken is pretty good too). I now appreciate the reports of converts to the Mac about how much more stable it is than Windows. I look forward to having a phone that does not lock up, spontaneously reset, or go into a "boot loop." I look forward to having a phone that does not require third-party software to bring its essential functions and apps to minimum acceptable standards.

    Do not get me wrong; I understand the trade-offs. I will probably keep my Treo for the applications that may never appear on the iPhone. Fortunately, I can move my Cingular/AT&T SIM from one phone to the other.
    01-15-2007 03:35 PM
  13. Malatesta's Avatar
    Did you read my post? I know what the 700wx is as I own one

    The post was about WM5: it can do 480x480 and 640x480. That is a fact.

    The treo 700w(x) does not do that because of reasons 1-3 that I posted not due to a limitation on WM5 itself. I even wrote:

    Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens...
    Please read more carefully.
    01-15-2007 06:37 PM
  14. specimen38's Avatar
    ......But the product itself does not appear to innovate in any way short of the concept of having a very large screen and absolutely no buttons.

    Robkz, with all due respect, may I point out the following innovations in addition to the two innovations you pointed out:

    Innovation #3 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce "visual voicemail."

    Innovation #4 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce multi-touch on a touchscreen aka "point and pinch touchscreen."

    Innovation #5 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce a full scale browser which displays a full page (not a scaled down wap page).

    Innovation #6 - iPhone is first cell device in history to employ widgets as applications.

    Innovation #7 - iPhone is first cell device implement 3 sensors. A proximity sensors to protect the phone while you are talking by determining how close your face is to the phone. A sensor for ambient light and a sensor that determines when the phone is view either landscape or portrait. Frankly, I can't think of another phone that uses sensors at all, but perhaps you can. That alone would be Innovation #8.

    How about some non-innovations that we Treo users would love to have?

    1) WIFI
    2) 4 or 8 Gigabytes Memory
    3) iPod (and cover flow technology to view our music)
    4) MacOS X (i.e. multi-threaded/multi-tasking operating system)
    5) Ability to browse internet while talking on the phone (really important to me on a personal level)
    6) Better volume on calls
    7) Ability to sync a Macintosh or PC iTunes, Address book and files

    01-15-2007 08:17 PM
  15. specimen38's Avatar
    Putting aside the innovations mentioned in the post above, I would be willing to part with my Treo 650 simply on the basis of the non-innovations Apple has put into the iPhone.

    Agree or Disagree? What do you all think?

    1) WIFI
    2) 4 or 8 Gigabytes Memory
    3) iPod (and cover flow technology to view our music)
    4) MacOS X (i.e. multi-threaded/multi-tasking operating system)
    5) Ability to browse internet while talking on the phone (really important to me on a personal level)
    6) Better volume on calls
    7) Ability to sync a Macintosh or PC iTunes, Address book and files
    01-15-2007 08:28 PM
  16. surur's Avatar
    FYI, my HTC Universal has an ambient light sensor, to decide if the keyboard needs to be illuminated or not. Its not exactly new tech, its been around since at least 2002 (my Loox 600).

    Regarding full scale browser, what does that exactly mean. We dont know how much of the web the IPhone browser supports. The Safari browser currently also runs on the Nokia Symbian phones, and are also said to be rather good. Netfront has excellent javascript support. Opera mobile renders full screen very well. Minimo (mozilla for windows mobile) is very much a full grown browser. Does safari even have a single column mode so you dont have to fiddle with the page all the time, or is that too retro for Jobs?

    Browsing the internet while on the phone will only work while using WIFI, unlike what would happen if you had UMTS.

    Widgets as apps are just nonsense. Widgets are just javascript, and Apple wont allow 3rd parties to even author these freely.

    The sensor controlling rotating the screen takes the place of a simple button which could have done the same job cheaper and more reliably, not to mention landscape mode for all apps, not just the ones Jobs chooses.

    The IPhone is much less innovative than you think.

    Surur
    01-15-2007 08:29 PM
  17. specimen38's Avatar
    Why so skeptical my friend?

    FYI, my HTC Universal has an ambient light sensor, one sensor to decide if the keyboard needs to be illuminated or not. Its not exactly new tech, its been around since at least 2002 (my Loox 600).

    Regarding full scale browser, what does that exactly mean. It means everything your desktop browser can do it does. And I know from personal experience what Safari does on a desktop. We dont know how much of the web the IPhone browser supports. The Safari browser currently also runs on the Nokia Symbian phones, and are also said to be rather good. Netfront has excellent javascript support. Opera mobile renders full screen very well. On what what phone or phones? What size is the screen of that phone does Opera perform this function? Minimo (mozilla for windows mobile) is very much a full grown browser. Does safari even have a single column mode During the presentation you saw (I am assuming you saw the keynote) -- multitouch technology was introduced for that.. so you dont have to fiddle with the page all the time, or is that too retro for Jobs?

    Browsing the internet while on the phone will only work while using WIFI, I'll take it unlike what would happen if you had UMTS.

    Widgets as apps are just nonsense. Microsoft does not seem to think so. They'll be in Vista. Widgets are just javascript, and Apple wont allow 3rd parties to even author these freely. "What about 3rd party developers and the iPhone?" The old components approach is dependent on 3rd parties to write software that you have to continually upgrade when the OS upgrades while no one takes responsibility when things don't work together. The end to end approach increases the liklihood working software by providing a suite of base (killer app) products that work before a device is sold. I am certain Apple will invite the 3rd party developers into the "party" at an appropriate time when it can be certain bugs can be isolated in on a stable OS and reduced to a minimal, which makes the customer experience so much better.

    The sensor controlling rotating the screen takes the place of a simple button which could have done the same job cheaper ....cheaper are the devices that lack imagination and innovation. and more reliably, not to mention landscape mode for all apps, not just the ones Jobs chooses.

    The IPhone is much less innovative than you think. I don't think you understand!

    Surur
    You mentioned HTC, Nokia, Symbian, Netfront, Minimo and I only mentioned one device with everything integrated on it. iPhone baby!
    01-15-2007 08:43 PM
  18. bruckwine's Avatar
    my question..is visual voicemail an innovation or a service that was well overdue? wrt iPhone I really see two real innovations - multi-touch and... well uh that's it.
    The browser bit I can't say is real innovation either but it IS a bold step - there's a reason most phones don't use full webpages..not cause they couldn't use that kind of browser witht heir hardware, but simply the screen size of anything that can fit in one palm/hand makes scrolling a pain pretty or not..imagine readding this forum with 10-20 post per page on a 4 " screen..might be cool using the finger scroll but also pretty tiresome after a while...imo it doesn't really matter unless and that is probably the key the pics mean more than the words ont eh page.
    A widget is still just an application by another name - it's not true innovation to move something( first done back in the 80s - maybe "porting" it to mac was innovative?!) for the same basic system used on desktops (OS X) from one device to another e.g. desktop to laptop.
    The iPhone will be great but despite what one may want to believe the only real innovation (apart from HOW you interact with the touchscreen) has been the combination of the features and not the features themselves. It'll create a better market though hopefully!
    01-15-2007 08:53 PM
  19. specimen38's Avatar
    my question..is visual voicemail an innovation or a service that was well overdue?
    Probably both. No other company out there was thinking. I bet everyone will have on their next product iteration.
    01-15-2007 08:56 PM
  20. whmurray's Avatar
    FYI, my HTC Universal has an ambient light sensor, to decide if the keyboard needs to be illuminated or not. Its not exactly new tech, its been around since at least 2002 (my Loox 600).

    Regarding full scale browser, what does that exactly mean. We dont know how much of the web the IPhone browser supports. The Safari browser currently also runs on the Nokia Symbian phones, and are also said to be rather good. Netfront has excellent javascript support. Opera mobile renders full screen very well. Minimo (mozilla for windows mobile) is very much a full grown browser. Does safari even have a single column mode so you dont have to fiddle with the page all the time, or is that too retro for Jobs?

    Browsing the internet while on the phone will only work while using WIFI, unlike what would happen if you had UMTS.

    Widgets as apps are just nonsense. Widgets are just javascript, and Apple wont allow 3rd parties to even author these freely.

    The sensor controlling rotating the screen takes the place of a simple button which could have done the same job cheaper and more reliably, not to mention landscape mode for all apps, not just the ones Jobs chooses.

    The IPhone is much less innovative than you think.

    Surur
    Tsk. Tsk.
    01-15-2007 08:58 PM
  21. kmrivers's Avatar
    FYI, my HTC Universal has an ambient light sensor, to decide if the keyboard needs to be illuminated or not. Its not exactly new tech, its been around since at least 2002 (my Loox 600).

    Regarding full scale browser, what does that exactly mean. We dont know how much of the web the IPhone browser supports. The Safari browser currently also runs on the Nokia Symbian phones, and are also said to be rather good. Netfront has excellent javascript support. Opera mobile renders full screen very well. Minimo (mozilla for windows mobile) is very much a full grown browser. Does safari even have a single column mode so you dont have to fiddle with the page all the time, or is that too retro for Jobs?

    1. Browsing the internet while on the phone will only work while using WIFI, unlike what would happen if you had UMTS.

    2. Widgets as apps are just nonsense. Widgets are just javascript, and Apple wont allow 3rd parties to even author these freely.

    3. The sensor controlling rotating the screen takes the place of a simple button which could have done the same job cheaper and more reliably, not to mention landscape mode for all apps, not just the ones Jobs chooses.

    The IPhone is much less innovative than you think.

    Surur
    1. What a silly statement. So the EDGE isn't there huh? Guess Apple lied. And I am sure you have used it and you would know it doesn't work at all.

    Not working is different then "not working the way I would like it to." Just because it isn't fast does not mean it doesnt work. I don't mean to get into the semantics of this, but even you can admit that is a stupid statement to make.

    2. Widgets as apps are far from nonsense. In fact, right now I have a dictionary and a calculator. I am guessing you think the calculator app in windows isn't really an app right? Widgets can be games, are games not apps? I enjoy how you downplay it. With the introduction of dashcode in leopard making widgets will be easy for everyone. Anyhow. The future of 3rd party is unknown, so you can't propagate such a concrete statement on zero facts. At this point, it will be a more regulated system. No one has said "NO!." Until that happens try not to spread lies to downplay the phone.

    3. Nice of you to down play the tech. Why not have a sensor replace someone have to press a button? And again I am sure you have used it enough to know how reliable it is correct? Landscape for all apps? Why? All the apps don't need landscape, how could landscape make my contacts list better? Maybe it could give me the contacts with their picture on the right, and maybe they will do that. Part of innovation is knowing how far to take it. Yeah it is a nice feature if everything flips to landscape but whats the point? Unless there is a real purpose. It seems like you are reaching a bit now, because this is truely a nitpick.
    01-15-2007 09:39 PM
  22. Certs's Avatar
    What a silly statement. So the EDGE isn't there huh? Guess Apple lied. And I am sure you have used it and you would know it doesn't work at all.

    Not working is different then "not working the way I would like it to." Just because it isn't fast does not mean it doesnt work. I don't mean to get into the semantics of this, but even you can admit that is a stupid statement to make.
    He said it will not work WHEN YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, which is no lie.

    This phone not having 3G (coming from someone who uses 3g) is a shame. Apple is not giving the phone the capability to perform to its full potential. That's a fact, not opinion. I guess they feel that it will not be enough of a deal-breaker for consumers, and we'll find out in half an annum if they are right.
    01-15-2007 09:46 PM
  23. kmrivers's Avatar
    He said it will not work WHEN YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, which is no lie.

    This phone not having 3G (coming from someone who uses 3g) is a shame. Apple is not giving the phone the capability to perform to its full potential. That's a fact, not opinion. I guess they feel that it will not be enough of a deal-breaker for consumers, and we'll find out in half an annum if they are right.
    You are correct my bad. I misread that. I apologize surur, don't flame me

    Lack of 3G is a shame. Which will have me waiting most likely. Unless they cram it in. You have to remember the market here though, the people who they are aiming for to some degree have probably never had a phone where they browse the web. For them, they may not even know any better. How many people really understand cell networks and the roadmaps for them? Not many I am guessing.

    Plus, 3G coverage for Cingular is pretty weak. I can't get it. My Sprint contract isnt up until 2008. By that time, I hope 3G is here and iPhone has it. I can't see the iPhone going too far into '08 without 3G. Especially since they will be hitting Europe and Asia.
    01-15-2007 09:54 PM
  24. oalvarez's Avatar

    The IPhone is much less innovative than you think.

    Surur
    cool. i'll wait until the final version is released and in my hands to determine how innovative it is or it is not, for my needs.

    thanks for the commentary though
    01-15-2007 10:04 PM
  25. whmurray's Avatar
    He said it will not work WHEN YOU'RE ON THE PHONE, which is no lie.

    This phone not having 3G (coming from someone who uses 3g) is a shame. Apple is not giving the phone the capability to perform to its full potential. That's a fact, not opinion. I guess they feel that it will not be enough of a deal-breaker for consumers, and we'll find out in half an annum if they are right.
    I expect Wi-Fi, EDGE, and Safari to be an improvement over EDGE and Blazer, which is what I have now.
    01-15-2007 10:40 PM
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