1. bclancy's Avatar
    3rd party support: a thing of the ages
    ...
    the treos out of the box (with the exception of the raised keyboard) will do not much more than the i-phone. ...
    That's the point of having 3rd party software. The "good" of this is that Palm does not have to do all the work themselves and take longer to get a device out. The "bad" of this is that we *have* to buy 3rd party apps to get the functionality we want.

    ... why? because given the osx platform available to them and the like, they'd be crazy not to include the more popular pda feature set. they will have what it takes to develop a solid and well thought out device.
    Apple couldn't publish their API without giving away a lot of the functionality of the upcoming device. Without having pre-existing "3rd-party" apps, Apple has to create what people will need themselves. The advantage to this is they can create a consistent user experience and a common "mental model" or similarity between all apps. The big disadvantage is this is a closed-proprietary model until/if Apple opens up (or 3rd party developers reverse-engineer) the APIs. There is no "darwinism" and we'd have to rely on Apple to do the right thing. Also without the ability to program the device, the device can only be considered a "feature phone" and not a smartphone.

    apple is thinking in the right way. palm is not.
    That's a very subjective statement. I'd say that Apple is thinking in the way that is right for them, at the moment.

    My Predictions: I fully expect that Apple will change this model as their mobile OS X platform matures. Once the cat (API) is out of the bag (as in Palm's case), they can't ignore the fact that others will write software and they will have to adapt their strategy (as Palm has done) to account for this. I expect that in about 2 years time, there will be 3 smartphone platforms: OSX-mobile, windows-moble, and Linux. Apple will be thinking in exactly the same way as the others, and all three will have chipped away at blackberry. I'm not sure what will happen to Symbian, but I think youl'll see most of those users migrate to OSX-mobile.

    You heard it here first!
    --
    Bob
    01-11-2007 10:18 AM
  2. copernicus's Avatar
    ...
    On another note, I think the Palm Treo 950 running ALP offers the best browsing experience ever.
    01-11-2007 12:11 PM
  3. tirk's Avatar
    5. 5 hours of battery life for talk/video/bwrowsing; 16 hours for audio playback. Note that this is with wi-fi and bluetooth going at the same time. This is unbelievable performance.
    Quite right - I don't believe it either.
    01-11-2007 12:24 PM
  4. AdamK's Avatar
    To this end, they also enlarge the keys as our finger approaches the screen (not yet touching) so that our brain can have some verification.
    Wait, how is this possible? You seem to imply that there's a camera or other sensor that senses when your finger is above a key and enlarges it. I find that hard to believe.

    Adam
    01-11-2007 01:22 PM
  5. mobileman's Avatar
    Wait, how is this possible? You seem to imply that there's a camera or other sensor that senses when your finger is above a key and enlarges it. I find that hard to believe.

    Adam
    In the keynote Jobs said that there is a sensor in it, taht will recognize when you put it up to your face to make phone calls, it turns the screen of to save power.
    01-11-2007 01:38 PM
  6. surur's Avatar
    For Apple fans, nothing is hard to believe.

    Surur
    01-11-2007 01:51 PM
  7. KRamsauer's Avatar
    In the keynote Jobs said that there is a sensor in it, taht will recognize when you put it up to your face to make phone calls, it turns the screen of to save power.
    That's not a big deal at all. My camera has that feature. However, the fidelity of the feature described above (sensing where the finger is in relation to the screen when it hasn't even touched it yet) is amazing. I would be surprised if it actually did it by sensing the figure (as opposed to predictive text input).
    01-11-2007 02:12 PM
  8. oalvarez's Avatar
    That's a very subjective statement. I'd say that Apple is thinking in the way that is right for them, at the moment.

    You heard it here first!
    --
    Bob
    So Palm is thinking how?
    01-11-2007 06:18 PM
  9. archie's Avatar
    Wait, how is this possible? You seem to imply that there's a camera or other sensor that senses when your finger is above a key and enlarges it. I find that hard to believe.

    Adam
    According to Apple's patent documentation, it is documented as using one or more OR all of the techniques below. It is kind of vague and from what I had read I do not know how to determine how many of the techniques where actually used (although you can probably rule out the ultrasonic proximity detection). My best guess, as to how they accomplished what I mention in this thread, is that they used a capacitive proximity detection system.

    Capacitive proximity systems use capacitive sensing nodes to detect changes in capacitance above the I/O surface. Objects such as a finger affect the capacitance in a non trivial manner and therefore the changes can be used to determine whether the finger is present above the I/O surface.

    Infrared proximity systems send out pulses of infrared light, and detect reflections of that light from nearby objects. The light may for example be reflected off of a finger located in front of the pulsed light. If the system detects reflected light, then an object is assumed to be present. If the system does not detect reflected light, then it is assumed that there is no object present. The light may be focused to a particular distance above the I/O surface.

    Optical Shadow proximity systems use photodetectors or similar device to detect changes in light intensity. If the intensity is reduced, it can be assumed that this was caused by the presence of an object forming a shadow over the photodetector.

    Ultrasonic proximity systems provide ultrasonic pulses of sound, and measures the length of time it takes for those pulses to hit nearby objects and return as echoes. The greater the time, the further the object.
    01-11-2007 06:38 PM
  10. archie's Avatar
    Reading it further, it sounds like they have used all of these to accomplish differing tasks.
    01-11-2007 06:41 PM
  11. cjdaniel's Avatar
    Yeah the (Keynote) presentation was impressive, but as those of us who hit the Treo Roadshows know it's the "show" that you need to be concerned about. I was blown away ONE day later here are my thoughts.

    I phone looks like a very cool device EXCEPT:

    1. Why did we not see the camera in action?

    2. Can you use MMS? I can now or I can email a picture but for communicating with other Mobile phone users sometimes it is the only option.

    3. What no Video Camera or function?

    4. Battery Internal, we haven't experienced that since Treo 600 and thank god that was quickly solved, nothing like being wired to a car charger or AC/adapter when your phone gets low.

    5. No SD (Micro or Mini) expansion?

    6. No OTA Syncing well I guess that puts us back a few years.

    7. No demo of calendar function? Is it that clunky? Worse that WM Calendar?

    8. No Edge Demo, thats scary too. When I got my 650 and Cingular got Edge it was rip roaring, it since as slowed considerably at least in my area. What would have the NY times page taken to laod with an edge connection rather than the WiFi they used?

    9. No mention of DUN??? Proabably not possible.

    10. No ICHAT?? I thought I chat was supposed to be the most awesome form of AIM.

    11. Apple device with no direct downloading from itunes??

    12. If this new and improved keyboard was so great (for those who watched Keynote) why didn't they have someone who could type demo ing it? Steve typing with one finger was a demostration of crap.

    13. "Incredible Internet" We only saw steve hitting favorties keys, what would it be like typing an internet address. As you saw nothing he typed had symbols in it, how clunky is that?

    14. That scrolling looks cool, but imagine I am on the 405 and scrolling through 500 contacts, what a nightmare, no favorite keys???

    15. Voice dialing, my god that is so 10 years ago, it doesn't even have that?


    Likes

    1. Looks very cool and made by Apple
    01-11-2007 06:47 PM
  12. hest's Avatar
    Cheek Grease....
    01-11-2007 08:02 PM
  13. cody's Avatar
    Are you implying I'm not impressed or that I didn't watch the grandstanding for an hour? It took a long time to fully download that NY Times page on Wifi.

    .
    can someone please post a link to this video. thanks, cody
    01-11-2007 08:29 PM
  14. alokeprasad's Avatar
    01-11-2007 08:50 PM
  15. archie's Avatar
    It took a long time to fully download that NY Times page on Wifi.
    Tell me how it long it takes to download the NYT on your mobile phone.


    Then tell me how long it takes to download it on your desktop connection.
    01-11-2007 08:51 PM
  16. archie's Avatar
    You know 22 seconds to download all of the NYT during that demo compared to 10 seconds on my 5Mb desktop connection isn't bad.
    01-11-2007 08:52 PM
  17. MacUser's Avatar
    Its style over function in the end, which is typical Apple.
    Surur
    I would disagree. It's ease-of-use over all--the Apple way. "It just works".
    01-11-2007 09:07 PM
  18. Woof's Avatar
    Not to continue the pissing match, but gee archie get real. If Marc isn't an expert on IMAP, who is? If the creation and perfection of Chatter doesn't elevate him to expert nothing does.

    Apple AND Yahoo! press releases specifically say "Push IMAP". That is a capital "P".

    They also specifically say it will be free for iPhone customers only, which is also to infer that it is Push IMAP and not the other stuff you are claiming, which is freely available to anyone.
    The fact that it can be configured for iphone customers only doesnt make it anything special. You thinking it does because you read a press release only says that you believe alot stuff just cause you read it. I could put a capital B on bs and it doesnt make it a new kind of bs.
    01-11-2007 09:24 PM
  19. Chatter's Avatar
    I still think the big stinker here will be battery life, but we'll see. A smallish battery, fast processor, and a hankering to browse or listen to music or get your mail pushed to you = less than a day of use for semi-power users and up.

    Something to think about: These non power-users who Apple is aiming at (i.e. the consumer market); are they used to charging their phones every night? If they really take advantage of this phone, they will have to. Or will they then stop using those features and keep it as a phone so it will be usable for a few days...

    Marc

    p.s. I still want one (for looking at)
    01-11-2007 09:30 PM
  20. MacUser's Avatar
    I still think the big stinker here will be battery life, but we'll see. A smallish battery, fast processor, and a hankering to browse or listen to music or get your mail pushed to you = less than a day of use for semi-power users and up.

    Something to think about: These non power-users who Apple is aiming at (i.e. the consumer market); are they used to charging their phones every night? If they really take advantage of this phone, they will have to. Or will they then stop using those features and keep it as a phone so it will be usable for a few days...
    I know that I have an iPod charger in my car, on my desk at my office and one at home. I'm thinking most people have a second charger and would easily use it at least once a day to keep their iPod/cell phone/media player/mobile web browser charged.

    Just my 2 cents.
    01-11-2007 10:05 PM
  21. mikec#IM's Avatar
    Archie...you still here? It's seems just like yesterday I served you (or FITA, for you South Park fans) when you invented all sorts of lies about Apple.

    Anyway, Marc is da man, and knows more about email than you ever hope to. He is an expert, and you are just a CAPper (cut and paster - quote sources without understanding them).

    Marc, you have amazing patience and civility in your replies to him; I strive for such zen-ness.

    As for the iPhone, yes, it's sexy and cool. I am sure people will by it. I prob will, just to have the gadget.

    It's basically an Apple version of a combined Palm's Lifedrive, LG phone, with a little Sony PSP throw in for good measure, in a sexy package. It looks great and has nice features. I love the form factor.

    But, the creaming of pants will subside...it's a long 6 months to June.

    Here are the problems with it for those of us with live on the Treo:

    1.) Non-replaceable battery - unacceptable in any phone. A phone is not an MP3 player. If my MP3 player runs out, I am annoyed, if my phone does, I am effed.

    2.) Requires two hands to use effectively (one to hold phone, the other to use finger as stylus. Sure, you can use thumb, but that is a "limited" digit, so to speak).

    The Treo can be used with one hand very well (as can most phones). This a something most people overlook.

    3.) No Office integration, or loadable 3rd party apps. This is a big problem.

    4.) Um...instant messaging? SMS is not IM...where's the Trillian app that will save the day?

    As for 3G and the keyboard, I guess we will see. Wifi does not make up for EDGE, and Wifi is not as ubiquitous as some think. Sure when I am home and at work, I have it. (or at a Starbucks). but everywhere else, it's 2.5G or 3G.
    I suspect a HSPDA upgrade down the road ala the Treo 750v.

    And the price...$600 phone+1680 (2 years mimimal voice (40 plus tax) and data (20) =70 a month x 24 months) means close to $2300. That's a steep price for something whose battery will likely be dead before then.
    01-11-2007 10:23 PM
  22. Certs's Avatar
    If the phone is EDGE only there will be NO upgrade down the line...UMTS requires a seperate modem. So disappointing.
    01-11-2007 10:38 PM
  23. archie's Avatar
    Wolf, I did some checking and found that this free push email you are speaking of actually requires an application to sit on your phone which checks the yahoo e-mail account. This is not Push IMAP email technology of any sort.

    ...and I never said Chatter was not an expert. If you check back it was Chatter denouncing me as no expert - never having claimed to be.

    Alll I said is that Yahoo was providing free Push IMAP email for iPhone customers and Chatter had to jump in to seemingly knock the iPhone down a few pegs or something to that affect.
    01-11-2007 10:41 PM
  24. archie's Avatar
    If the phone is EDGE only there will be NO upgrade down the line...UMTS requires a seperate modem. So disappointing.
    That's not what Steve Jobs said today.
    01-11-2007 10:42 PM
  25. archie's Avatar
    Archie...you still here? It's seems just like yesterday I served you (or FITA, for you South Park fans) when you invented all sorts of lies about Apple.
    I suppose it WOULD seem that way to you.
    01-11-2007 10:43 PM
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