1. west3man's Avatar
    I will say that I'm tired of having to purchase a Treo and then a suite of 3rd-party applications to make it what I'd like for it to be.

    I bought an app. to play movies, one for dial-up networking, one for voice-dialing, games (which is much more subjective), music-playing, and, if I get a 700P, I'll soon be purchasing one for streaming music from online radio stations and video from sites like YouTube.com.

    From that perspective, the Treo costs much more than the up-front price. I don't know that the iPhone will have good enough replacement for enough of the above or the stuff I haven't mentioned, but that's not the point (especially since we don't expect it to have Office apps.).

    These devices cost too much for that kind of thing. It'd suck to buy a car just to find out it doesn't come with a horn, headlights, or any of a number of things that are essential or near-essential to the user experience.
    01-11-2007 10:29 AM
  2. west3man's Avatar
    Apple = slick = well packaged, but closed.
    I think the 8GB harddrive capacity, with no option for removable storage illustrates this point.
    01-11-2007 10:30 AM
  3. Souljer's Avatar
    I think in the end we'll all find that the market is big enough for the Treo and iPhone (or whatever it's going to be called..Cisco might have something to say here) to exist.

    D
    01-11-2007 10:53 AM
  4. west3man's Avatar
    Hi West3man!!

    I agree to a point. PCs didn't/don't come loaded with all the WOW programs -- although MS has tried to usurp them over time and manufacturers try to create PC "packages" with certain feature sets.

    Palm is providing the base unit and apps that IMHO would statisfy the majority of users and their needs. Then there is us at TC that want to push the envelope and a third party industry has grown up to meet that group.
    I guess I kinda feel you, if you're saying that personal computers didn't come with some of the more useful/essential programs, at first, so it's understandable that smartphones sometimes don't.

    However, I don't think wanting voice-dialing, which is offered on free clamshells, is pushing the envelope or asking for too much in a world where "celling" and driving is becoming as stigmatized as drinking and driving.

    Higher-speed internet access implies certain types of usage, so I'd expect greater browser functionality to be a given.

    For me, a phone like this is a huge purchase. Following that purchase with a series of software purchases, for "givens" (from my perspective) is very bothersome.

    I do not see Palm trying to crush it's 3rd party providers and steal their market the way MS has. . . . I see them trying to foster that market.
    I don't want them crushed, either. For the money, I just want the phone to have more options/functionality out-of-the-box.

    That's one reason why I believe in the 900P.
    I don't believe or disbelieve in the 900P. All I know about it is the information you provide, which I gratefully and hungrily gobble up.
    01-11-2007 11:03 AM
  5. KMeloney's Avatar
    This is an interesting debate -- especially because no one has actually used an iPhone yet (and so we have no idea just how good/bad it will be), yet people are ready to say that everything it will do has been done already, and it's going to be hurt by a lack of third-party support, etc...

    I think that it's way too early to say that the sky is or isn't falling. What you CAN say with conviction is whether or not this phone -- and what little we really know about it at this point -- interests you as your next phone, and for me it sure does.

    I would bet that the majority of people who are luke-warm to or unimpressed by the iPhone are not "Apple/Mac people." If you use and enjoy Apple products, then you are probably excited about what this phone can offer, based on Apple's history of product development. You're excited about how easy it will be to upgrade and backup the phone, how smoothly is will operate, how it will be packed with innovative features that you can't believe they thought of, and many more sentiments that come with the latest offerings from Apple. And, seeing that they use "widgets" on this phone, you could imagine that there WILL be plenty of third-party support for this phone (since widget software -- most of which is freeware -- is being written for the Mac OS all the time by third-party developers).

    Incidentally, being a Mac guy, the most important feature that I added to my 650 is Datebook 5. Why? 'Cause it makes my phone more "Mac-like" with the use of icons and whatnot in my calendars. With the iPhone, I have to wonder just how much I'd want to change about it. Also, I have a 650 (and not a Windows Mobile-based Treo) because the Palm OS interacts nicely with my Macs. And being a Mac guy, I'm excited about the prospect of this phone being very likeable and user--friendly right out of the box.

    Bringing up the Newton as an "Apple-tried-this-once-and-failed" example isn't appropriate here. You have to consider the financial, market-share, and overall public support position of Apple then. When you do that, the Newton really had no chance. Everything is different now. And, Apple isn't inventing the cell phone here ask asking the public to adopt it (which you could argue it was trying to do with the Newton) -- it's attempting to make a cell phone packed with features, super-easy to use (intuitive), and in a style that Mac (and iPod) users have come to love. Based on the success for the iPod, you could argue that there's a HUGE market for this particular phone.

    ...And there's no denying that some people will try to disparage this phone just because it's an Apple product. But I think that's silly. (These might be the same people who trashed the company and the stock the day it reached $97 simply 'cause they don't own the stock.)

    Now, are people really concerned about the the front of the phone getting "greasy/smudgey," and wouldn't buy this phone because of that? And are these people serious? Would these people be put out my swiping the phone against their pantleg or sleeve from time to time? (Wow -- some people really just don't want this phone to be successful.)

    I am excited about the prospects of this phone. And if it's as good as my 650, then I'll be getting one. If it's NOT as good as my 650, then I'll pass on it (until it is better). But doesn't it make sense to wait and see just what this can and can't do before making too many bold predictions about it?

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 11:11 AM
  6. west3man's Avatar
    This is an interesting debate -- especially because no one has actually used an iPhone yet (and so we have no idea just how good/bad it will be), yet people are ready to say that everything it will do has been done already, and it's going to be hurt by a lack of third-party support, etc...

    I think that it's way too early to say that the sky is or isn't falling. What you CAN say with conviction is whether or not this phone -- and what little we really know about it at this point -- interests you as your next phone, and for me it sure does.

    I would bet that the majority of people who are luke-warm to or unimpressed by the iPhone are not "Apple/Mac people." If you use and enjoy Apple products, then you are probably excited about what this phone can offer, based on Apple's history of product development. You're excited about how easy it will be to upgrade and backup the phone, how smoothly is will operate, how it will be packed with innovative features that you can't believe they thought of, and many more sentiments that come with the latest offerings from Apple. And, seeing that they use "widgets" on this phone, you could imagine that there WILL be plenty of third-party support for this phone (since widget software -- most of which is freeware -- is being written for the Mac OS all the time by third-party developers).

    Incidentally, being a Mac guy, the most important feature that I added to my 650 is Datebook 5. Why? 'Cause it makes my phone more "Mac-like" with the use of icons and whatnot in my calendars. With the iPhone, I have to wonder just how much I'd want to change about it. Also, I have a 650 (and not a Windows Mobile-based Treo) because the Palm OS interacts nicely with my Macs. And being a Mac guy, I'm excited about the prospect of this phone being very likeable and user--friendly right out of the box.

    Bringing up the Newton as an "Apple-tried-this-once-and-failed" example isn't appropriate here. You have to consider the financial, market-share, and overall public support position of Apple then. When you do that, the Newton really had no chance. Everything is different now. And, Apple isn't inventing the cell phone here ask asking the public to adopt it (which you could argue it was trying to do with the Newton) -- it's attempting to make a cell phone packed with features, super-easy to use (intuitive), and in a style that Mac (and iPod) users have come to love. Based on the success for the iPod, you could argue that there's a HUGE market for this particular phone.

    ...And there's no denying that some people will try to disparage this phone just because it's an Apple product. But I think that's silly. (These might be the same people who trashed the company and the stock the day it reached $97 simply 'cause they don't own the stock.)

    Now, are people really concerned about the the front of the phone getting "greasy/smudgey," and wouldn't buy this phone because of that? And are these people serious? Would these people be put out my swiping the phone against their pantleg or sleeve from time to time? (Wow -- some people really just don't want this phone to be successful.)

    I am excited about the prospects of this phone. And if it's as good as my 650, then I'll be getting one. If it's NOT as good as my 650, then I'll pass on it (until it is better). But doesn't it make sense to wait and see just what this can and can't do before making too many bold predictions about it?

    /< / /2 /<
    My opinion on it is based on what we already know about it. Of course, there's always the chance that some of this is misinformation, but that's distinct from trashing it because there's an apple on the back of it.

    Dial-up networking is a must. Office applications/equivalents are a must.

    As far as smudged-up screens - yes, that's a pain on a phone. I'd imagine it's even more of a pain when your screen IS your phone.

    That's not necessarily a deal-breaker, for me, but it is of some small concern.

    That's all I'm doing is expressing my thoughts and concerns. Doesn't seem like jumping the gun or playing Chicken Little, to me, at all.
    01-11-2007 11:37 AM
  7. Pearl_Diva's Avatar
    I'm lukewarm and I've like what Apple had to offer. Cost is a main factor. The thinness and screen are indeed cool, but that will also mean BE CAREFUL! It may be necessary to buy a case and for sure a screen protector, even before you get the phone. And no one handed usage(not that I do this one anyway) for the Treo lovers.

    I'm taking a wait and see. But I will agree that innovation is way better than the stagnation Palm has put us through!! Palm refuses to break out of their mold and it is costing them.
    01-11-2007 11:45 AM
  8. KMeloney's Avatar
    My opinion on it is based on what we already know about it. Of course, there's always the chance that some of this is misinformation, but that's distinct from trashing it because there's an apple on the back of it.
    I hear you. And don't think, please, that I consider just any dissenting opinion to be trashing the phone. My post is based on some of what I've read here, and a lot of what I've read elsewhere. There are some folks who are trashing this thing with little basis for the trashing.

    Dial-up networking is a must. Office applications/equivalents are a must.
    I just HAVE to think that, since this is coming from a computer company, it's going to incorporate office apps. It really HAS to, doesn't it? (That's a rhetorical question! LOL)

    As far as smudged-up screens - yes, that's a pain on a phone. I'd imagine it's even more of a pain when your screen IS your phone.

    That's not necessarily a deal-breaker, for me, but it is of some small concern.
    I don't know about others here, but my Treo phone is CONSTANTLY being smudged. Why? 'Cause I tend to put it to my ear/face when I talk on it. It's in a case, and it has a screen protector on it. Sometimes I use my finger as a stylus. So, how will this be any different of a "concern" than with the Treo? I don't get this argument as even a "concern."

    That's all I'm doing is expressing my thoughts and concerns. Doesn't seem like jumping the gun or playing Chicken Little, to me, at all.
    You're not losing your perspective here, West. Some folks are, I think, but you're not one of them. Thanks for the response!

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 11:55 AM
  9. KMeloney's Avatar
    I'm lukewarm and I've like what Apple had to offer. Cost is a main factor.
    Sure thing. At this price, it's going to have to do things really well or at least more easily than our current phones. No doubt.

    The thinness and screen are indeed cool, but that will also mean BE CAREFUL! It may be necessary to buy a case and for sure a screen protector, even before you get the phone.
    I think this is a given, and no different than the approach that most of us have taken with our Treos. There are lots of threads about cracked Treo screens here. Why? 'Cause these things are breakable when dropped or abused. I dropped my Treo and scratched the crap out of it prior to getting a case for it. Then, I added a case, and the inside of the case scratched the crap out of it! LOL But at least the case now covers the scratches, and it gives me something to GRIP other than the slippery case of the Treo. But you have to be careful with ALL of these phones, and that "carefulness" corresponds directly to cost for most people, right?

    And no one handed usage(not that I do this one anyway) for the Treo lovers.
    If this is the same general size of a Treo (but THINNER!), then I should be able to use this one-handed, based on the fact I can use my Treo one-handed. Everyone's mileage and comfort here will vary, no doubt. But I have a feeling that the iPhone was desgined with the idea that lot of folks have gotten really used to thumbing the thumbwheel on their iPods, and that this should be an easy transition.

    I'm taking a wait and see. But I will agree that innovation is way better than the stagnation Palm has put us through!! Palm refuses to break out of their mold and it is costing them.[/COLOR]
    ...But Treo is also pretty good at what they do within their "mold." I just wonder if, given the opportunity, the iPhone will present a really good reason for people to abandon that Treo mold. I'm inclined to think it will.

    This is going to be interesting!

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 12:11 PM
  10. west3man's Avatar
    I don't know about others here, but my Treo phone is CONSTANTLY being smudged. Why? 'Cause I tend to put it to my ear/face when I talk on it. It's in a case, and it has a screen protector on it. Sometimes I use my finger as a stylus. So, how will this be any different of a "concern" than with the Treo? I don't get this argument as even a "concern."
    My Treo's in a case that protects the screen, thus minimizing the amount of gook that collects on it - although there's more gook than I'd like.

    The difference, as I was trying to say before, is that the iPhone is ALL screen. There IS no keeping the controls accessible while protecting the screen, so there is no minimization of gook-collection.

    It makes the device unattractive, it probably makes it perform worse, and, despite the fact that much of the gook may have come FROM my face, I wouldn't wanna put my face back on it.
    01-11-2007 02:38 PM
  11. KMeloney's Avatar
    My Treo's in a case that protects the screen, thus minimizing the amount of gook that collects on it - although there's more gook than I'd like.
    West -- So, what's the difference between cleaning your case and cleaning the phone?? Seriously, folks... It appears that there are no nooks and crannies for crap to get into on the face of this phone (unlike on my Treo, which requires me to remove the case to get the dust and crap out/off of, not to mention the black "stuff" that is attaching itself to the sides of the keyboard buttons), so cleaning the iPhone/keeping it clean looks like it'd be a piece of cake.

    (I know that I'm latching onto this "iPhone will be harder to keep clean than most phones" concept, but... Man... I just don't see it as a reasonable knock against this phone.)

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 03:52 PM
  12. west3man's Avatar
    West -- So, what's the difference between cleaning your case and cleaning the phone??
    I know you're not supposed to answer a question with a question, but...

    So, what's the difference between scratches on your case and scratches on your phone?

    Seriously, folks... It appears that there are no nooks and crannies for crap to get into on the face of this phone (unlike on my Treo, which requires me to remove the case to get the dust and crap out/off of, not to mention the black "stuff" that is attaching itself to the sides of the keyboard buttons), so cleaning the iPhone/keeping it clean looks like it'd be a piece of cake.

    (I know that I'm latching onto this "iPhone will be harder to keep clean than most phones" concept, but... Man... I just don't see it as a reasonable knock against this phone.)

    /< / /2 /<
    That's fine.

    We're all just sharing our impressions here.
    01-11-2007 03:57 PM
  13. bruckwine's Avatar
    well I must admit the iPhone (patent taken new name pending) looks gorgeous and might be a nice thing to have jogging etc vs a treo...but apart from the starting appz problem (ppl suggest widgets --- do they have widget games yet?) can it truly be a smartphone first time? I'm not sure Apple is aiming for that market anyway!

    One thing I can't see myself liking is the lack of tactile phoning...ppl say you'll get used to it but I guess after decades of touching buttons on regular and cellphones it's hardwired in me...

    if I could afford it I'd get this iPhone to complement my treo...a phone small and light enough to carry to the gym with tons of space for half my music collection (yes it's that big lol) - anyone with an active lifestyle would appreciate a light mp3player whichis also a phone - think this is Apple's biggest market after the cool factor

    ..then..when it's time to go to work..switch my SIM into my at-this-point way more productive looking but still able to have fun with it treo 680! Based on the price though I think i'll be buying a 3rd Gen one though like I did with the iPod!!

    P.S. Can you imagine the potential scratches using the screen after a month?? if they've cured that defect from the nanos then i expect more iPods made from this new material
    01-11-2007 04:24 PM
  14. Trevante's Avatar
    So, what's the difference between scratches on your case and scratches on your phone?
    You can take the case off and put on a brand-new, scratchless one? You can let the easily replaceable case get beat up instead of the not-so-easy-to-replace iPhone?

    I do agree that the iPhone will be a bit messier, (with you always having to use your fingers and if you hold it to your face) although I guess it would be easier to clean.

    with tons of space for half my music collection (yes it's that big lol)
    Then you don't have enough music.
    01-11-2007 04:54 PM
  15. KMeloney's Avatar
    but apart from the starting appz problem (ppl suggest widgets --- do they have widget games yet?) can it truly be a smartphone first time?
    Of course they have widget games! LOL All you have to do is check the Apple site for the hundreds of widget "apps" they have (which include games). Sounds like you're not a Mac person -- and that's no knock on you... It just sounds like you're not familiar with widgets and the Mac OS.

    One thing I can't see myself liking is the lack of tactile phoning...ppl say you'll get used to it but I guess after decades of touching buttons on regular and cellphones it's hardwired in me...
    Your microwave has push-buttons?! (I'm completely kidding! I sure hope this virtual keyboard feels better than a microwave's buttons!) I'm not sure how easy this will be to get comfortable with, either -- but if I make fewer mistakes typing with it than I do on the Treo keyboard, then that'll be awesome. Maybe typing will be even FASTER on the iPhone. I have no idea, of course, but I'm hoping it'll be a feature that I like.

    ..then..when it's time to go to work..switch my SIM into my at-this-point way more productive looking but still able to have fun with it treo 680!
    What exactly are you and others doing daily on your Treos that make it more of a "work" phone? What do you need a phone to do? I'm in a small business, and the Treo works fine for me... And I have a bunch of friends who are in big, big corporations, and they tend to use Blackberry's... But, from my knowledge, they rely on their BB's for email, the phone, and scheduling. [And it all has to be something their IT guys can troubleshoot.] So, where might the iPhone fall short for "work?" I haven't heard a compelling argument there yet.

    P.S. Can you imagine the potential scratches using the screen after a month?? if they've cured that defect from the nanos then i expect more iPods made from this new material
    Is your Treo screen scratched up? Mine's not -- but I never used it without a screen protector -- and I use a plastic stylus on it. I also have my iPod in a case. You wouldn't NOT protect the iPhone, would you? I'd protect it immediately.

    West -- Regarding your Q: "So, what's the difference between scratches on your case and scratches on your phone?" I'd say the answer is the ease/cheapness involved in replacing the case. My point was that argument against getting an iPhone 'cause it would get dirty seems moot since Treo's and/or their cases protecting them would appear to get just as (if not more) dirty -- yet we bought THEM regardless.

    I just find it interesting when people suggest that they might not get the iPhone (or anything, for that matter) because of issues that ARE PRESENT with the product they currently use. It'd be one thing if folks suggested that the iPhone looks like "it, too, would require protection, just like my Treo does," for example -- but some folks out there act as though the Treo is impervious to paint scratches, breaking screens, dust and smudges, etc.

    :cheers:

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 04:56 PM
  16. mobileman's Avatar
    Of course they have widget games! LOL All you have to do is check the Apple site for the hundreds of widget "apps" they have (which include games). Sounds like you're not a Mac person -- and that's no knock on you... It just sounds like you're not familiar with widgets and the Mac OS.
    What makes you think those widgets will work with OSX mini that the iPhone runs? Do you know something we dont?



    What exactly are you and others doing daily on your Treos that make it more of a "work" phone? What do you need a phone to do? I'm in a small business, and the Treo works fine for me... And I have a bunch of friends who are in big, big corporations, and they tend to use Blackberry's... But, from my knowledge, they rely on their BB's for email, the phone, and scheduling. [And it all has to be something their IT guys can troubleshoot.] So, where might the iPhone fall short for "work?" I haven't heard a compelling argument there yet.
    How about syncing with my corporate exchange account with Push activesync. I dont really believe many big companies will like having users load itunes on every desktop.
    01-11-2007 05:10 PM
  17. Andrew-NYC's Avatar
    While the i-phone (or whatever it ends up being called) looks way cool, there are definitely issues. One of the best things about the Treo is the easiness you can text message/send e-mail. Will this be as easy with "virtual" buttons? Doubtful, but we'll see. Then there's the battery issue. The beauty of the Treo is you can replace or have extra batteries on hand. The i-phone's battery would have to be changed by Apple, meaning you're without your precious phone for a while. Not good. Perhaps the 2nd or 3rd generation will be "the phone", but for now, the Treo still rocks. My 680 has only reset twice, and that was on a search, which it didn't find.
    01-11-2007 07:24 PM
  18. bclinger#IM's Avatar
    I have never purchased a hand held device or a desktop or a laptop that I did not put third party software on to meet my needs. I use WordPerfect, not Word, I use OmniForm, Mozilla Seamonkey, several Adobe products on my desktop and laptops. On my Treo I use DTG, ChatterEmail and other programs because they do more than the default ones.

    The standard datebook works fine, though I want more, hence DB6. The standard dialer works fine, though I want more, hence Takephone 6. The ability to integrate functions with applications similar to 2Day add a lot. The memo application allows one to take notes, DTG does so much more. And you know that with a device as narrow as the iPhone is, battery life will be an issue from the get-go.

    Very few of us are satisfied with the stock applications. We figure we want an extra function from an application or another way of accomplishing something - there is no perfect device out there. A device that limits access to third party applications is one that may make a user initially happy, but crabby when he realizes that is all he is getting. Buy the device, just do not ***** when you find you cannot get more.

    Give the iPhone time, it will do more, but right now, it frankly is not a serious contender for those of us who use our devices in work environments.

    Ben
    01-11-2007 07:53 PM
  19. west3man's Avatar
    I don't know what's so hard to understand about the idea that I'd rather my case get dirty, scratched-up, or discolored, than for this to happen to my device.

    SURE, it might happen SOMEwhat, with a Treo, but AGAIN, there's a big difference between a phone with a screen and a phone that IS a screen.

    I've already explained why, so I'm trying to resist the temptation to be too repetitious.

    Thanks for the convo.
    01-11-2007 08:05 PM
  20. bclancy's Avatar
    ... Cingular ... Who did they get to do this independent survey for least dropped calls? I want to talk to those fools.
    Oh, I think I know the answer to that one:

    Cingular has the fewest dropped calls because they also have the fewest placed calls.

    (On other words: Lets say they have 2M dropped calls out of 10M total, and Verizon has 2.5M dropped calls out of 100M total. Then Cingular is the network sith the fewest dropped calls. Duh!)
    01-11-2007 08:09 PM
  21. bcaslis#IM's Avatar
    I disagree. If you ask the phone makers they will tell you that a small percentage of users use third party apps. This forum is not representative.

    Secondly, could be that the built-in apps stink? The iPhone has gorgeous versions of the Mac OS X apps. I don't see anything so far on it that I want to replace. I'd be more than happy to trade off some third party apps for first-class built-in apps and better stability.

    Very few of us are satisfied with the stock applications. We figure we want an extra function from an application or another way of accomplishing something - there is no perfect device out there. A device that limits access to third party applications is one that may make a user initially happy, but crabby when he realizes that is all he is getting. Buy the device, just do not ***** when you find you cannot get more.

    Give the iPhone time, it will do more, but right now, it frankly is not a serious contender for those of us who use our devices in work environments.

    Ben
    01-11-2007 08:23 PM
  22. bclancy's Avatar
    ... I'd be more than happy to trade off some third party apps for first-class built-in apps and better stability.
    Mee too (but not without a published API so that I or others could program around the things we don't like). Without the ability to program, it's just a "feautre phone". (A very classy feature phone, but nonetheless, nothing more.) It will be interesting to see how many units will sell at the high $500-$600 "gotta have this sexy thing" before it gets priced about $100 over the ipod.
    01-11-2007 08:52 PM
  23. mobileman's Avatar
    I disagree. If you ask the phone makers they will tell you that a small percentage of users use third party apps. This forum is not representative.

    Secondly, could be that the built-in apps stink? The iPhone has gorgeous versions of the Mac OS X apps. I don't see anything so far on it that I want to replace. I'd be more than happy to trade off some third party apps for first-class built-in apps and better stability.
    Doesnt look like they included a IM application, only SMS chat. Are you going to be happy with that on a $600 phone. I'm not.
    01-11-2007 09:06 PM
  24. Chatter's Avatar
    I was wondering about cases (for people who don't want their screens scratched) and how the touch sensitive screen will react to it. Also, how that nice flat surface will look with a screen protector on it - ugh.

    Bottom line is that there are a zillion different phones because variety is a good thing. The iPhone will do very well, no doubt, but, for any number of reasons, it's not the last word on phones or converged devices.

    Marc
    01-11-2007 09:27 PM
  25. KMeloney's Avatar
    [QUOTE=mobileman;1170320]What makes you think those widgets will work with OSX mini that the iPhone runs? Do you know something we dont?[QUOTE/]

    No, I don't know anything more than anyone else here, I'm sure. I'm simply thinking that there must be a logical, Apple-esque reason for the use of "widgets" on the phone, and I'm hopeful that it's because of how seamlessly they would integrate with the Mac OS. Also, I just haven't heard any compelling reason to believe that there won't be any third-party support.

    [QUOTE]How about syncing with my corporate exchange account with Push activesync.[QUOTE/]

    I don't know what activesync is. What's activesync?

    I dont really believe many big companies will like having users load itunes on every desktop.
    I don't either. Now, WHY would they have to? (You lost me here.)

    /< / /2 /<
    01-11-2007 09:44 PM
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