1. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    Seems obvious that if the API is dropped there is no further means of communication between the app and a (web)service.
    First statement is not quite true. Apple has all previous apps on file, and offers them accordingly to older iOS versions. This is not a decision the developer makes as far as I know.
    It is. A developer had a choice to offer old versions or not. Yes I'm in the developer program so I know this for certain.
    10-14-2013 07:39 AM
  2. richu75's Avatar
    It is. A developer had a choice to offer old versions or not. Yes I'm in the developer program so I know this for certain.
    I stand corrected.
    10-14-2013 10:16 AM
  3. natasftw's Avatar
    You did pay for the device... you did not pay for the OS. Apple gives that away... year after year. For free.

    As others have said, Apple didn't force anyone to upgrade. Maybe be patient and research before diving in to a new iOS. But expecting Apple, and 3rd party app developers, to spend money to continually support people who want to flip flop to older versions of the already free OS is asking a bit much. If you had to pay for new versions of iOS, like Windows or OS X... then of course, switching back is and always should be an option. I'm sure Apple would be fine with charging for iOS if you really want to go that route.
    Typically, Apple hardware costs more than competitor hardware. This is most mentioned with laptops, but seeing as competitors usually have a phone with "better" hardware specs for similar, or lower, pricing, it remains true for the iPhone. When the specs are weaker and the phone costs the same, what do you think the remaining cost goes towards? I'd be willing to wager it's related to the OS and customer experience. The OS isn't exactly "free."

    As others have been countered, some have been forced to upgrade. It wouldn't cost Apple anything else. They've already stopped R&D on the older version of iOS. They're supporting the users regardless. iOS6 users don't cost more than iOS7 users. As far as app devs, simply not deleting all app files in iTunes with each upgrade could fix that problem.
    10-14-2013 10:50 AM
  4. natasftw's Avatar
    Only after reading the reviews... and were talking about upgrading an operating system on a phone, not buying a car. But I suppose the phrase caveat emptor applies to both situations.

    Do you just go around pushing buttons and clicking links without understanding what youre doing or what the effect will be?
    You missed his point entirely.

    With the millions of iPhone users, many aren't very tech savvy. If you've ever dealt with any type of tech support, even for friends, you would know this. I've had friends that spend 45 minutes on a call with someone before getting the user to admit a monitor is unplugged.

    Spyware exists, in part, because many people do just click what they see.

    While Pappy, and you, may not click buttons and links without thinking about consequences, that's not a valid counter to "many do click buttons and links without thinking about consequences." It's entirely possible a large group of people still click without thinking even if the two of you don't.

    He used the car analogy because it's a decision you'll stick with. You dismiss it, but don't take the time to realize that the decisions aren't all that different. A car costs more, but can be sold easier than a locked phone. The length of time that decision will stick with you can be less than that of a phone. Both are devices you'll likely use frequently. As such, they're decisions you should be happy with.

    You've given a lot of "tough. They chose it. They should deal with it." types of responses. Do you have any legitimate reasons to prevent the downgrade or are you just generally angry? I can guess why Apple doesn't allow it. But, none of their reasoning has ANYTHING to do with what you've said in this thread.
    WhiteSpir1t and Jerry_ like this.
    10-14-2013 10:58 AM
  5. natasftw's Avatar
    It is. A developer had a choice to offer old versions or not. Yes I'm in the developer program so I know this for certain.
    Given that you're in the dev program, your last comment bothers me.

    When the API changes, the new OS utilizes the API to perform a task. Updating your app by using the new API makes your app work with the new iOS. This "breaks" the app in regards to the older iOS versions as they do not understand the API any longer.

    However, failing to change it makes no difference to the older iOS. A change in API is iOS specific. This is why older versions are no longer compatible. If the older app was compatible with the older iOS, it'll maintain compatibility unless Apple goes back and modifies the API in all older versions of iOS. Why would they do this? That's essentially modifying them all to be iOS7. It'd be a time-consuming effort that ends up with a large number of iOS7 clones.

    It doesn't matter whether Apple or the developer chooses to allow downloads of older app versions, compatibility remains constant. Those older versions may lose functionality the new apps have, but that's to be expected.
    10-14-2013 11:06 AM
  6. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    Given that you're in the dev program, your last comment bothers me.

    When the API changes, the new OS utilizes the API to perform a task. Updating your app by using the new API makes your app work with the new iOS. This "breaks" the app in regards to the older iOS versions as they do not understand the API any longer.

    However, failing to change it makes no difference to the older iOS. A change in API is iOS specific. This is why older versions are no longer compatible. If the older app was compatible with the older iOS, it'll maintain compatibility unless Apple goes back and modifies the API in all older versions of iOS. Why would they do this? That's essentially modifying them all to be iOS7. It'd be a time-consuming effort that ends up with a large number of iOS7 clones.

    It doesn't matter whether Apple or the developer chooses to allow downloads of older app versions, compatibility remains constant. Those older versions may lose functionality the new apps have, but that's to be expected.
    You misunderstood me. Yes if an app remains an old version and support old Apple APIs, yes it will still work with those APIs. However many apps use non-Apple APIs to communicate with various servers. If those non-Apple server-based APIs change to support a new version of the app, the old version of the app will no longer work when trying to communicate with the server unless the developers decided to keep multiple versions of their server APIs around.
    10-14-2013 11:17 AM
  7. Fausty82's Avatar
    You missed his point entirely.

    With the millions of iPhone users, many aren't very tech savvy. If you've ever dealt with any type of tech support, even for friends, you would know this. I've had friends that spend 45 minutes on a call with someone before getting the user to admit a monitor is unplugged.

    Spyware exists, in part, because many people do just click what they see.

    While Pappy, and you, may not click buttons and links without thinking about consequences, that's not a valid counter to "many do click buttons and links without thinking about consequences." It's entirely possible a large group of people still click without thinking even if the two of you don't.

    He used the car analogy because it's a decision you'll stick with. You dismiss it, but don't take the time to realize that the decisions aren't all that different. A car costs more, but can be sold easier than a locked phone. The length of time that decision will stick with you can be less than that of a phone. Both are devices you'll likely use frequently. As such, they're decisions you should be happy with.

    You've given a lot of "tough. They chose it. They should deal with it." types of responses. Do you have any legitimate reasons to prevent the downgrade or are you just generally angry? I can guess why Apple doesn't allow it. But, none of their reasoning has ANYTHING to do with what you've said in this thread.

    Apple doesn’t allow it now. Why would they? The support issues would become unmanageable - for both Apple and for app developers. People who don’t understand what they are doing when they click SOFTWARE UPDATE aren’t going to understand why they can’t see anything from their computer when the monitor is unplugged.

    I would venture that the majority who want to be able to "go back" want to do so to be able to jailbreak (or preserve a jailbreak). If they are going down that road, odds are that they already know what they are doing and how to do it.

    What about the new devices? You get the new iOS with the new hardware. You don’t have an option to install any previous versions of iOS. Should I be allowed/able to install iOS 5 on my new iPhone 5S because I like the way it looks or like the way it does this or that? Imagine the fragmentation that would result... and the support effort to (try to) keep everyone happy. It will never happen. It’s part of Apple's business model - a walled garden with specific limitations. You knew it when you bought into the ecosystem. And a large part of that ecosystem is the smooth consistency that provides the customer with a quality experience. Apple sells hardware and and licenses software bundled into a single, polished piece of kit. And part of the premium that you and i paid was to bring us that experience.

    You chose the walled garden with its limitations for a reason. Now own it. You pushed the big red update button, and now you have to own that, too. Otherwise, where does it end?
    Last edited by Fausty82; 10-14-2013 at 01:39 PM.
    kch50428, jmr1015 and WhiteSpir1t like this.
    10-14-2013 11:25 AM
  8. iEd's Avatar
    Don't you test drive a car before you buy it?
    Car = Thousands of dollars

    iOS 7= Free
    10-14-2013 11:46 AM
  9. Fausty82's Avatar
    Car = Thousands of dollars

    iOS 7= Free
    Oh, yeah, there is that, too.
    10-14-2013 01:37 PM
  10. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    I don't see any reason not to allow it. As long as it's only the previous OS and nothing that far back (app compatibility reasons). Everyone's reasoning as to why they shouldn't is plausible. It doesn't mean that having the choice wouldn't be nice. If I'm happy with iOS 7 and the person next to me would rather stay on iOS 6 after having bad experiences with iOS 7, what's it to me that they can downgrade?
    10-14-2013 02:05 PM
  11. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    I would like the option, but somewhat understand why Apple wouldn't allow it.
    10-14-2013 02:08 PM
  12. natasftw's Avatar
    Apple doesn’t allow it now. Why would they?
    You're confusing two questions. The question posed is "should they?" This doesn't always share an answer with "will they?" Whether or not they will is entirely irrelevant to the question the OP posed.



    The support issues would become unmanageable - for both Apple and for app developers. People who don’t understand what they are doing when they click SOFTWARE UPDATE aren’t going to understand why they can’t see anything from their computer when the monitor is unplugged.
    Which support issues are you concerned with? The only new support for Apple would be for them to say "I'm sorry, that app is only supported on the newest version of iOS. If you'd like to use it, please update to the newest iOS." Everything else is already in place.

    For developers, the only affected devs are those with their own API, as Karen pointed out. This could be easily fixed, going forward, by adding to API rather than over-writing/eliminating components. It's not this devastating support issue you suggest it is.


    I would venture that the majority who want to be able to "go back" want to do so to be able to jailbreak (or preserve a jailbreak). If they are going down that road, odds are that they already know what they are doing and how to do it.
    If this is your belief, the vast majority wouldn't add support issues as you claimed prior. A more likely group are the group that are SURE the new iOS is draining their battery while ignoring usage habits changing.

    What about the new devices? You get the new iOS with the new hardware. You don’t have an option to install any previous versions of iOS. Should I be allowed/able to install iOS 5 on my new iPhone 5S because I like the way it looks or like the way it does this or that? Imagine the fragmentation that would result... and the support effort to (try to) keep everyone happy. It will never happen. It’s part of Apple's business model - a walled garden with specific limitations. You knew it when you bought into the ecosystem. And a large part of that ecosystem is the smooth consistency that provides the customer with a quality experience. Apple sells hardware and and licenses software bundled into a single, polished piece of kit. And part of the premium that you and i paid was to bring us that experience.
    You don't believe people that advocate for the ability to downgrade iOS would accept a compromise that doesn't require Apple to go back and make older versions of iOS compatible with new devices? That's an easy line to draw. If Apple can successfully draw a line at not allowing any downgrading, they could easily draw the line at downgrading is only available for iOS versions originally designed for the device.

    You chose the walled garden with its limitations for a reason. Now own it. You pushed the big red update button, and now you have to own that, too. Otherwise, where does it end?
    You've got a great deal of animosity in this discussion. Why is that?
    Grabber5.0 likes this.
    10-14-2013 11:10 PM
  13. nyry's Avatar
    I believe so. At least the ability to rolback to the previous iteration of iOS
    10-14-2013 11:41 PM
  14. pappy53's Avatar
    Car = Thousands of dollars

    iOS 7= Free
    And your point is?
    10-15-2013 12:35 AM
  15. pappy53's Avatar
    @Fausty82
    "I would venture that the majority who want to be able to "go back" want to do so to be able to jailbreak (or preserve a jailbreak). If they are going down that road, odds are that they already know what they are doing and how to do it."

    I disagree with that assumption. I believe that the majority would probably be older, less techy people.
    All that I am saying is that Apple should give a couple of weeks leeway, just to allow people to try the new version, and then roll back to their previous version if they don't like it. Two weeks after the new version release, Apple stops signing on the old version. Would that be so hard?
    10-15-2013 12:41 AM
  16. nyry's Avatar
    @Fausty82
    "I would venture that the majority who want to be able to "go back" want to do so to be able to jailbreak (or preserve a jailbreak). If they are going down that road, odds are that they already know what they are doing and how to do it."

    I disagree with that assumption. I believe that the majority would probably be older, less techy people.
    All that I am saying is that Apple should give a couple of weeks leeway, just to allow people to try the new version, and then roll back to their previous version if they don't like it. Two weeks after the new version release, Apple stops signing on the old version. Would that be so hard?
    I mean im 100 percent with you on this. But sadly to Apple this is a simple numbers game; the more people on the newest firmware the better it looks for them when they unveil the numbers and bring out the pie chart of how many people are on the newest OS version compared to Android, and the less fragmentation they have the better Apple looks.
    10-15-2013 03:10 AM
  17. Fausty82's Avatar
    You're confusing two questions. The question posed is "should they?" This doesn't always share an answer with "will they?" Whether or not they will is entirely irrelevant to the question the OP posed.
    No confusion here. Except for those that think this little exercise will change anything.

    Which support issues are you concerned with? The only new support for Apple would be for them to say "I'm sorry, that app is only supported on the newest version of iOS. If you'd like to use it, please update to the newest iOS." Everything else is already in place.

    For developers, the only affected devs are those with their own API, as Karen pointed out. This could be easily fixed, going forward, by adding to API rather than over-writing/eliminating components. It's not this devastating support issue you suggest it is.
    This would open a huge can of worms and lead to general mass confusion, IMHO.

    You don't believe people that advocate for the ability to downgrade iOS would accept a compromise that doesn't require Apple to go back and make older versions of iOS compatible with new devices? That's an easy line to draw. If Apple can successfully draw a line at not allowing any downgrading, they could easily draw the line at downgrading is only available for iOS versions originally designed for the device.
    Doubtful, again, IMHO. Its a slippery slope. Once Apple does it, the issue could easily be expanded to "if I can go back 1 generation of release, why not 2 (or 3 or 4)..." People will never be satisfied... as the adage goes "give them an inch and they want/take a mile"...

    You've got a great deal of animosity in this discussion. Why is that?
    No animosity. I just see this issue for what it is... an exercise in futility. Its not going to happen, so why get yourselves all whipped up and in a frenzy about it. Apple will never do this, so the whole thread is pointless and moot.

    Im done with this one. If you are convinced that it should happen, and talking about it here will help make it happen, have at it. Dont let me rain on your parade...
    10-15-2013 03:27 AM
  18. iEd's Avatar
    And your point is?

    What's your point? Comparing test driving a car to a mobile device OS is silly. That's my point.
    10-15-2013 06:45 AM
  19. linsiris's Avatar
    I guess they should, at least for older devices that don't run latest updates so well. I have a friend with a iP4 that wants to throw it out of the window because he upgraded to a iOS7 and phone is reeallly slow and laggy he wishes he didn't now he can't downgrade and went to upgrade his phone but now has to wait like 3 weeks to get an iPhone 5s. That's just crazy sometimes :s
    10-15-2013 02:16 PM
  20. iEd's Avatar
    I guess they should, at least for older devices that don't run latest updates so well. I have a friend with a iP4 that wants to throw it out of the window because he upgraded to a iOS7 and phone is reeallly slow and laggy he wishes he didn't now he can't downgrade and went to upgrade his phone but now has to wait like 3 weeks to get an iPhone 5s. That's just crazy sometimes :s
    I have a iPad 2 that runs great with iOS 7. Even better when I restored as new.
    10-15-2013 02:43 PM
  21. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    I guess they should, at least for older devices that don't run latest updates so well. I have a friend with a iP4 that wants to throw it out of the window because he upgraded to a iOS7 and phone is reeallly slow and laggy he wishes he didn't now he can't downgrade and went to upgrade his phone but now has to wait like 3 weeks to get an iPhone 5s. That's just crazy sometimes :s
    When it comes to how far back a device should support iOS 7, I think it should stop at the 4S. I've experienced iOS 7 on the iPhone 4 as well and it doesn't run very well.
    nyry likes this.
    10-15-2013 02:56 PM
  22. linsiris's Avatar
    When it comes to how far back a device should support iOS 7, I think it should stop at the 4S. I've experienced iOS 7 on the iPhone 4 as well and it doesn't run very well.
    I agree with you! I don't know why they said iP4 could handle iOS7 when it obviously can't. 4s can very well, though.
    10-15-2013 04:10 PM
  23. warcraftWidow's Avatar
    When it comes to how far back a device should support iOS 7, I think it should stop at the 4S. I've experienced iOS 7 on the iPhone 4 as well and it doesn't run very well.
    I know several people on a 4 and they have no issues with iOS 7. So YMMV.
    10-15-2013 04:28 PM
  24. iEd's Avatar
    When it comes to how far back a device should support iOS 7, I think it should stop at the 4S. I've experienced iOS 7 on the iPhone 4 as well and it doesn't run very well.
    Damn I was thinking iPad 4
    10-15-2013 04:56 PM
  25. theKHMERboy's Avatar
    yes i think apple should allow people to downgrade their os if they want to... but then most apps are updated with ios 7 so if u were to downgrade u wouldnt be able to get the latest updates for certain apps
    10-15-2013 07:39 PM
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