1. abazigal's Avatar
    I personally find the whole notion that only 'legitimate developers' have the right to report bugs so arrogant and elitist, and completely overlooking the forest for the trees.

    I believe we are all busy people with better things to do than just whine endlessly. We post our experiences here not for attention, but because we are passionate about the Apple products we use, because we expect to eventually update to them one way or another, and most importantly, because we care enough to want this to be a success. So what if I am not a developer? How does it make my experiences with the beta any less legitimate, truthful or insightful?

    Maybe the tone could be a little better and less 'whiny', but I am of the opinion that there is no smoke without fire. When people do complain, it is likely because they are really experiencing some issues with IOS7 beta, issues which warrant a closer investigation, or at least, clarification. Rather than just brushing us away rudely and trivalising our feedback as ignorant prattling. If nobody is allowed to complain despite there clearly being bugs in a beta, then what is the point of releasing a beta in the first place?

    All these constitute invaluable feedback nonetheless, and what the developers can and ought to be doing, in my opinion, is to act on these feedback. Test them out and ascertain for certain whether these truly are bugs, and if so, get back to us and Apple as to what can be done about them. Not to bark back at the very same people who are no less invested in wanting IOS7 to succeed, technical expertise or no.
    06-13-2013 11:10 PM
  2. kch50428's Avatar
    06-13-2013 11:15 PM
  3. BLiNK's Avatar
    the way i understand it anyone who legitimately buys into the developer program ($99) is not even supposed to discuss anything iOS beta related on public forums - just on the Apple site. that's a good measuring stick for anyone curious

    Apple made the rules not anyone here
    revtech, jerryjin and John Yester like this.
    06-13-2013 11:17 PM
  4. abazigal's Avatar
    Respecting the NDA is one thing. The impression I am getting here is that we can't feedback because we are presumably 'not smart or qualified to make a squeak'. That's what rubbing me the wrong way.
    BLiNK and Dryland like this.
    06-13-2013 11:27 PM
  5. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Respecting the NDA is one thing. The impression I am getting here is that we can't feedback because we are presumably 'not smart or qualified to make a squeak'. That's what rubbing me the wrong way.
    You're right and you shouldn't be getting that impression. Having said that, it still does not negate the fact that people, have come and continue to come to the iMore forums to do the following:

    1. Seek access to the iOS Beta w/out going through the proper channels.
    2. Post illegal means to circumvent the iOS Beta process.
    3. Seek assistance in Installing the Beta onto their primary devices & ignoring the many warnings against it.
    4. Seek help in returning their devices to the way it was prior to installing the beta.
    5. Post bugs and glitches when they should be doing via Apple.

    It's one thing to discuss our choice device in a forum that caters to it and another thing to be so obsessed with wanting to have the next big thing to where you'd violate Apple's NDA, ignore Apple's bug submitting process, circumvent Apple's developer program and risk bricking your primary phone.
    06-14-2013 12:04 AM
  6. ios4ever's Avatar
    You're right and you shouldn't be getting that impression. Having said that, it still does not negate the fact that people, have come and continue to come to the iMore forums to do the following:

    1. Seek access to the iOS Beta w/out going through the proper channels.
    2. Post illegal means to circumvent the iOS Beta process.
    3. Seek assistance in Installing the Beta onto their primary devices & ignoring the many warnings against it.
    4. Seek help in returning their devices to the way it was prior to installing the beta.
    5. Post bugs and glitches when they should be doing via Apple.

    It's one thing to discuss our choice device in a forum that caters to it and another thing to be so obsessed with wanting to have the next big thing to where you'd violate Apple's NDA, ignore Apple's bug submitting process, circumvent Apple's developer program and risk bricking your primary phone.
    It's like your talking to a wall.... They will never admit they are wrong. Only Dev's can report bugs because only Dev's are allowed by Apple to have iOS 7 beta... NDA is binding contract.... If you brick your phone off an illegal copy of iOS Beta... Hey tough Cookies... Ask the person or Site that gave you the Beta for help. Know your role... When you pay up like the rest of the Dev's then you can speak about whatever you want..... Imore staff are telling you that your wrong and they still don't get it.
    06-14-2013 12:33 AM
  7. abazigal's Avatar
    It's like your talking to a wall.... They will never admit they are wrong. Only Dev's can report bugs because only Dev's are allowed by Apple to have iOS 7 beta... NDA is binding contract.... If you brick your phone off an illegal copy of iOS Beta... Hey tough Cookies... Ask the person or Site that gave you the Beta for help. Know your role... When you pay up like the rest of the Dev's then you can speak about whatever you want..... Imore staff are telling you that your wrong and they still don't get it.
    To me, these are 2 separate issues.

    If a child comes to you with a scraped knee he got from falling down because he was running towards to the bus or copying some stunt on 'punked', do you first admonish and laugh at him for ignoring your advice, or go about tending to his injury first?

    I know only Devs can report bugs. However, it is an undeniable fact that even non-devs are compiling bug lists of their own (be it real or not), and, admit it or not, these represent a veritable treasure trove of data and feedback. Which do you think makes more sense? Turn a blind eye to this very legitimate list of issues simply because the source may not be legit, or help play a part by looking into them as well, and aiding in consolidating all these bugs to submit to Apple, all the better with which to make improvements to IOS7?

    So someone gets his phone bricked as a result of the beta. What's wrong with rendering assistance to get their phones back up if you have any inkling of how to go about do so? To me, the more crucial matter here is not whether his copy of the beta was legit or not, but whether his iphone can be restored.

    Please get this straight. We are not your enemies here. We are all on the same side.
    06-14-2013 01:04 AM
  8. JTECJ's Avatar
    To me, these are 2 separate issues.

    If a child comes to you with a scraped knee he got from falling down because he was running towards to the bus or copying some stunt on 'punked', do you first admonish and laugh at him for ignoring your advice, or go about tending to his injury first?

    I know only Devs can report bugs. However, it is an undeniable fact that even non-devs are compiling bug lists of their own (be it real or not), and, admit it or not, these represent a veritable treasure trove of data and feedback. Which do you think makes more sense? Turn a blind eye to this very legitimate list of issues simply because the source may not be legit, or help play a part by looking into them as well, and aiding in consolidating all these bugs to submit to Apple, all the better with which to make improvements to IOS7?

    So someone gets his phone bricked as a result of the beta. What's wrong with rendering assistance to get their phones back up if you have any inkling of how to go about do so? To me, the more crucial matter here is not whether his copy of the beta was legit or not, but whether his iphone can be restored.

    Please get this straight. We are not your enemies here. We are all on the same side.
    Pro:
    Well stated and diplomatic.

    Con:
    No minds will be changed, the problem is longer running and deeper than a single post is going to be able to resolve.
    06-14-2013 01:21 AM
  9. LCW's Avatar
    Wtf? What is this "Why can't I complain" attitude? Developers don't complain dude. Betas aren't released so devs can complain about them. People running betas - be it devs or non-devs - understand that this is pre-release software and will be accompanied with many bugs. It's not meant to run on a main device.

    The best you can do is turn on the "send automatically" toggle under the "Diagnostics and Usage" panel under the About screen.

    No one needs your complaining. Least of all Apple. You clearly don't get the whole process. All you're adding is noise.
    revtech likes this.
    06-14-2013 06:36 AM
  10. Les74's Avatar
    I'm not a developer.


    I didn't pay the $99 fee to be one.


    I don't see what the big deal is to wait until September like 90% of iPhone owners are doing.

    Point is, let the people that are QUALIFIED do what they do and just relax.
    06-14-2013 06:45 AM
  11. ghostface147's Avatar
    I am not a developer and I've paid the last couple of years to beta test iOS. I work in IT and am tech savvy and know the risks involved, yet I choose to test because it's nice to contribute to the final product. I maintain good backups just in case as well. I report bugs and submit console logs when Apple engineering requests them from me. I use beta software as my daily drivers. However if you just want to be cool and install it (getting it illegitimately) without knowing what you are doing, then you can end up having an issue like this:

    http://forums.imore.com/ios-7/257564...ease-help.html

    Then you have the ones who complain on performance, stability, apps not working and whatnot. They come on here seeking assistance and we may not able to help because there may be no fix until a later beta release or it's broken because Apple changed the way it works permanently. You know where they can get help? The developer forums Apple provides paid members. But since they may have torrented a free version, they're stuck. The apps not working whiners are the worst (which not many are on here). Take the iMore app. It's broken. They may have a fix in hand, but aren't allowed to publish it because Apple forbids it. They can test among themselves however, but you aren't allowed to have it.

    People who whine provide no value to the development process and your thought process on assisting them with bugs is silly. Each phone is different and we may not be able to reproduce the issue. I certainly am not going to report your bug to Apple, then get back to you if and when they ask for logs, wait for you to respond and so on and so on. I'm not your middle man. Either become a paid developer and help legitimately or accept the risks knowing we probably won't be able to help with your specific issue. Put your phone in DFU mode, start over and stick with iOS 6.1.4.

    As for your statement on a kid scraping his knee, I would laugh at them first depending on severity. You're running like a fool and bust yourself....hahahahahaha. You fall off your bike learning and hurt yourself bad, I am helping you. You fall chasing the bus because you're late...too bad and I will admonish you for not being on time and laugh at you. Then their mom can take them to school.
    Fausty82 and kch50428 like this.
    06-14-2013 08:23 AM
  12. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    @abazigal The kid analogy you used does not fly. This situation is akin to taking medication designed specifically for John Doe. However, Jack Poe decides to ignore the warning and take the medication just to see what it's like. Well, Jack is now paralyzed. Do we admonish him or help him? I'd do both. I'd remind him how dumb it was to take medication that wasn't designed for him and then is attempt to help him by sending him to the very people who designed the medication. Furthermore, since there are possibly others who are thinking of doing the same unwise thing, seeing what happened to Jack will more than likely be a better deterrent than mere posted warnings. Finally, in regard to compiling a list of valuable information, if the list does not reach Apple then that information isn't as valuable as it could be.
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 06-14-2013 at 09:03 AM.
    revtech and Fausty82 like this.
    06-14-2013 08:38 AM
  13. cardfan's Avatar
    I'd post a firm warning sticky saying what's ok, and what's not. And then delete the whiner posts about things not working. It's ok though to talk about iOS 7 in general..design, features, etc. The constant posting about being a dev (when you only have to be a paid beta user) is the wrong way to combat it.
    06-14-2013 08:59 AM
  14. colinb913's Avatar
    Sorry what makes you "devs" more qualified then me? Because you paid $99 automatically places you in a higher echelon than me? How does that work?
    06-14-2013 10:03 AM
  15. kch50428's Avatar
    Sorry what makes you "devs" more qualified then me? Because you paid $99 automatically places you in a higher echelon than me? How does that work?
    With Apple, paying the fee gives one access to official channels where Apple will listen to bug reports, etc. They pay very little if any attention to people in forums like this...
    Just_Me_D and Fausty82 like this.
    06-14-2013 10:10 AM
  16. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Sorry what makes you "devs" more qualified then me? Because you paid $99 automatically places you in a higher echelon than me? How does that work?
    There is obvious confusion here so I will try to clear it up. iOS 7, according to Apple, is only offered to developers at this time and will be available to the general public this coming fall. For those wanting to have legitimate access to iOS 7 now can do so legitimately by going to https://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/ and enrolling. Yes, there are other means to acquiring iOS 7 and some are by illegal means. Those who acquire it via the Apple Developer Program are or should be aware of the bug submitting process associated with the program as well as know where to submit. They also have official support should something go wrong. Those who acquire it by unofficial means oftentimes do not so they flood iMore desperately seeking help which brings me to your questions. For those who paid the $99 to join the Apple Developer Program, they are indeed qualified to receive assistance from Apple and those who did not or cannot prove their membership in the aforementioned program are not qualified to receive assistance from Apple and in that regard, it does place them in a higher echelon than you, if you are not a member of that particular program. There is no such thing as being qualified to complain or unqualified to complain.
    kch50428 and Fausty82 like this.
    06-14-2013 10:21 AM
  17. ghostface147's Avatar
    Sorry what makes you "devs" more qualified then me? Because you paid $99 automatically places you in a higher echelon than me? How does that work?
    It's not a matter of being more qualified (although in some cases it is), it's a matter of having more access to fix issues. Access to phone support with Apple (at least twice and you can pay for more), and access to the developer forums for more detailed question and answer.

    Chances are that the hack who torrented the software or had a buddy register the UDID is, in many cases, not going to know how to use the tools to report bugs and work with Apple engineering to get crash logs or console logs in Xcode. That essentially makes them useless in the development process since they don't help. Now are there people who get the beta software through unofficial means that actually contribute? Yes there are.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    06-14-2013 10:23 AM
  18. abazigal's Avatar
    Fair enough. I have the explanations I was looking for, and I realize I have been quite hot-headed in going ahead with my questions without first considering the possible consequences. It did not dawn upon me how this "feedback" might cause trouble for app developers in the form of negative reviews.

    In reviewing my earlier posts, I also felt I may have come across as being brusque. I apologise in advance to anyone who may have been offended my my tone.

    You will hear no more from me with regards to this matter. Thanks to everyone here once more for your patience and understanding.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    Fausty82 likes this.
    06-14-2013 11:06 AM
  19. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    06-14-2013 11:13 AM
  20. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Fair enough. I have the explanations I was looking for, and I realize I have been quite hot-headed in going ahead with my questions without first considering the possible consequences. It did not dawn upon me how this "feedback" might cause trouble for app developers in the form of negative reviews.

    In reviewing my earlier posts, I also felt I may have come across as being brusque. I apologise in advance to anyone who may have been offended my my tone.

    You will hear no more from me with regards to this matter. Thanks to everyone here once more for your patience and understanding.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    Thank you for understanding.......In the meantime, continue to voice your opinions on various matters you find interesting because we do encourage feedback and debate. Take care and enjoy the rest of your day...
    Guacho likes this.
    06-14-2013 11:17 AM
  21. John Yester's Avatar
    06-14-2013 11:28 AM

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