1. grover5's Avatar
    Well stated, but I’m my own man so I can take it. Still, it strengthens the question: How can we all live in harmony when some of us can’t even stand hearing an alternative viewpoint? ....Just sayin’....
    That’s all good and well but I never mentioned a comparison between the level of police crimes vs the general public. That’s a straw man that you chose to create.
    BreakingKayfabe, TgeekB and Quis89 like this.
    06-02-2020 10:19 AM
  2. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    Pretends there's an argument that wasn't being made and chooses to label it as an "alternative viewpoint". No wonder why this country is screwed into oblivion.
    06-02-2020 10:28 AM
  3. TgeekB's Avatar
    Well stated, but I’m my own man so I can take it. Still, it strengthens the question: How can we all live in harmony when some of us can’t even stand hearing an alternative viewpoint? ....Just sayin’....
    I’m all for alternative viewpoints but right now, amongst the continue killing of innocent Americans because of the color of their skin, which we have seen all too often, we need to focus on improving our country. We always forget after a short time. We say we’re going to do something but never do. We go back to our privileged lives and pretend all is good.

    Let’s not make this about ourselves and our viewpoints, let’s make it about positive change.
    06-02-2020 12:10 PM
  4. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I’m all for alternative viewpoints but right now, amongst the continue killing of innocent Americans because of the color of their skin, which we have seen all too often, we need to focus on improving our country. We always forget after a short time. We say we’re going to do something but never do. We go back to our privileged lives and pretend all is good.

    Let’s not make this about ourselves and our viewpoints, let’s make it about positive change.
    Thread was never about me until we came to the part about “your kind”. Some of you were looking at things from one perspective whereas I was looking at it from another, but apparently since I was not looking at it like some of the others, something is clearly wrong with me. Right? Everybody’s different, but are somehow expected to act the same or think the same.

    Not one time did I speak ill of Mr Floyd. I did, however, state that some people took advantage of the situation to steal under the guise of being angry over the incident. I also stated that I disputed the comment about violence by police getting out of hand.

    Lastly, not one time did I speak ill of anyone who replied in this thread, but the same cannot be said of speaking ill of me. Oh and I’m under the impression that we should be outraged at the killing of any innocent person, regardless of the perpetrator or his or her color, and not just in certain situations...so yeah, let’s make this about positive change.
    06-02-2020 04:40 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    Thread was never about me until we came to the part about “your kind”. Some of you were looking at things from one perspective whereas I was looking at it from another, but apparently since I was not looking at it like some of the others, something is clearly wrong with me. Right? Everybody’s different, but are somehow expected to act the same or think the same.

    Not one time did I speak ill of Mr Floyd. I did, however, state that some people took advantage of the situation to steal under the guise of being angry over the incident. I also stated that I disputed the comment about violence by police getting out of hand.

    Lastly, not one time did I speak ill of anyone who replied in this thread, but the same cannot be said of speaking ill of me. Oh and I’m under the impression that we should be outraged at the killing of any innocent person, regardless of the perpetrator or his or her color, and not just in certain situations...so yeah, let’s make this about positive change.
    You seem to be taking this personal. We’re having a discussion about a difficult but necessary topic. It’s really not about your or my perspective, it’s about having an open conversation. If our emotions get involved, as always, we will shut down and nothing will change.

    I agree that people are taking advantage of the situation. I watched last night the coverage from Washington D.C. and most of the protestors were very civil, marching down the street letting their voices be heard. It was a small group of individuals, not related to the protestors, who looted stores. Some of them were caught and should be charged as such.

    Lastly, we should be outraged at any innocent killing no matter the skin color of the victim. The problem is it is disproportionally happening to certain people. In this day, with technology making it easy to videotape these incidents, we have evidence of exactly that. We should, as a nation and community, stand against it.

    I hope you keep commenting in this thread. You are a good person and have always been fair to me. Remember the leaders who have stood up for what is right and were often persecuted for it, even with death. This is easy compared to what they went through.

    Have a great night everyone.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    06-02-2020 05:11 PM
  6. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    You seem to be taking this personal. We’re having a discussion about a difficult but necessary topic. It’s really not about your or my perspective, it’s about having an open conversation. If our emotions get involved, as always, we will shut down and nothing will change.
    Then you may need to redirect your statement elsewhere.........I can take it....

    I agree that people are taking advantage of the situation. I watched last night the coverage from Washington D.C. and most of the protestors were very civil, marching down the street letting their voices be heard. It was a small group of individuals, not related to the protestors, who looted stores. Some of them were caught and should be charged as such.
    No doubt about.

    Lastly, we should be outraged at any innocent killing no matter the skin color of the victim.
    Yep. No doubt.
    The problem is it is disproportionally happening to certain people. In this day, with technology making it easy to videotape these incidents, we have evidence of exactly that. We should, as a nation and community, stand against it.
    No doubt about it.

    I hope you keep commenting in this thread. You are a good person and have always been fair to me. Remember the leaders who have stood up for what is right and were often persecuted for it, even with death. This is easy compared to what they went through.

    Have a great night everyone.
    Oh you know me. Where there’s controversy, I’ll try to.....um....stimulate the conversation a bit...
    06-02-2020 05:24 PM
  7. Quis89's Avatar
    Are you saying crimes/violence perpetrated by police are greater or have become greater in frequency than those that are not?
    I'm not sure what you're asking here. But I am saying there is an issue with police brutality in this country and I'm unsure how you can rationally deny this in addition to the proven differences in how people of color are treated by police and the judicial system in comparison to whites.
    TgeekB likes this.
    06-02-2020 06:49 PM
  8. Quis89's Avatar
    Here you go:

    Grover used the phrase “out of control”. I disagreed with it and still disagree with it. With that being said, if it is “out of control”, “out of hand”, or any other similar phrase, how so in comparison to the crimes committed by non-police officers?
    Why are we comparing crimes committed by police to those committed by non-police? Why are you deflecting from the issue we are discussing?
    06-02-2020 06:51 PM
  9. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Why are we comparing crimes committed by police to those committed by non-police? Why are you deflecting from the issue we are discussing?
    In one of my previous posts, I said I disagreed with the statement about violence by the police in this country being out of control. To “me”, that is saying their crimes are on par with or have exceeded those committed by non-police.

    Your reaction was something to the effect of....this is...wow.

    With the mindset I just explained, I asked if you’re saying that violence by police outnumber those by non-police.

    Now to your question above, are we limited to thinking one way? Do I have to think like you and others or am I free to think how I wish to think? Can I also have a viewpoint that different from yours or anyone else’s? If not, why? Mr. Floyd was killed by a police officer. Mr. Floyd was killed and he had not committed a crime. Some people are so upset or claim they are upset to the point of lawlessness. Some people (not in this thread) say they have a right to riot and loot to bring about change. I say they do not have the right to riot and loot. Am I aware of black men dying at the hands of police? Sure. Do I like it? No, I do not. Have I seen non-black men die at the hands of police? Sure have. Did I like it? No, I did not.

    Now that we’ve got that out the way, admit that you, me and others are not discussing the thread topic which is the Apple Store being looted. Since we’re not talking about the thread topic, then it shouldn’t matter if I compare police crimes to crimes by people who are not police. You didn’t have to respond, but you did.
    06-02-2020 07:17 PM
  10. TgeekB's Avatar
    I would argue that Police should be held to a higher standard than the general public when it comes to committing violent crimes. They are trained as such in how to handle different situations including, first always, how to deescalate.

    Since I’m in the healthcare industry (RN), it would be like asking if mistakes by nurses and doctors is out of control and then saying “not more than the general public”. I should be held to a higher standard because, again, I have been trained and educated on medical procedures, medication use, etc.

    I’m not sure if that comparison works to explain my view but....I gave it a try!
    Quis89 likes this.
    06-02-2020 07:29 PM
  11. grover5's Avatar
    I would argue that Police should be held to a higher standard than the general public when it comes to committing violent crimes. They are trained as such in how to handle different situations including, first always, how to deescalate.

    Since I’m in the healthcare industry (RN), it would be like asking if mistakes by nurses and doctors is out of control and then saying “not more than the general public”. I should be held to a higher standard because, again, I have been trained and educated on medical procedures, medication use, etc.

    I’m not sure if that comparison works to explain my view but....I gave it a try!
    To protect and serve. Not to kill and abuse their power.
    TgeekB and Quis89 like this.
    06-02-2020 07:52 PM
  12. Quis89's Avatar
    In one of my previous posts, I said I disagreed with the statement about violence by the police in this country being out of control. To “me”, that is saying their crimes are on par with or have exceeded those committed by non-police.

    Your reaction was something to the effect of....this is...wow.

    With the mindset I just explained, I asked if you’re saying that violence by police outnumber those by non-police.

    Now to your question above, are we limited to thinking one way? Do I have to think like you and others or am I free to think how I wish to think? Can I also have a viewpoint that different from yours or anyone else’s? If not, why? Mr. Floyd was killed by a police officer. Mr. Floyd was killed and he had not committed a crime. Some people are so upset or claim they are upset to the point of lawlessness. Some people (not in this thread) say they have a right to riot and loot to bring about change. I say they do not have the right to riot and loot. Am I aware of black men dying at the hands of police? Sure. Do I like it? No, I do not. Have I seen non-black men die at the hands of police? Sure have. Did I like it? No, I did not.

    Now that we’ve got that out the way, admit that you, me and others are not discussing the thread topic which is the Apple Store being looted. Since we’re not talking about the thread topic, then it shouldn’t matter if I compare police crimes to crimes by people who are not police. You didn’t have to respond, but you did.
    But literally, nobody argued that violence by police was on par or outnumbered violence perpetuated by non-police. You introduced an argument nobody was making. You keep acting like you’re a victim here being told how and what to think. Nobody is telling you that. What we are saying is that it’s disingenuous for you to inject an argument nobody made. Of course there is more violence committed by non-police. But what does that have to do with the FACT that there is a problem with police brutality in this country? Your argument is essentially like responding to someone complaining about employee theft in a retail store by saying “Well don’t customers steal?”. Ok...yes...BUT that doesn’t negate the fact that we are discussing employee theft and THAT is a problem.

    Same thing here. Yes...people commit crimes. But that is an entirely separate point. We aren’t asking you to think like everyone else. We are asking you to focus on the topic of police brutality. If you don’t believe there is an issue, then say that. But you can’t say, “Police brutality isn’t an issue because more people commit crimes”. That’s not how this works.

    You’re “All Lives Mattering”ing this conversation and that dialog honestly isn’t helpful to the issue that people are trying to bring forth. It’s disingenuous. You’ve seen black men die at the hands of police and didn’t like it? You’ve seen non-black people die at the hands of the police and didn’t like it? Ok...what have you done to ensure it doesn’t happen again? What initiatives have you supported? So many of you want to jump into these conversations by saying, “I thought we wanted equality for everyone” yet you aren’t doing a single thing to get it. Instead, you’re entering conversations being initiated by oppressed people and saying, “Well what about....”. Rather than saying “What about”...simply go protest for those people you’re asking about. Start a movement. If you aren’t interested in being a part of the one taking place, simply don’t engage at all. It’s not that hard.

    Do I agree with the rioting and looting? Nah. I don’t. But you know what I disagree with more? The countless black men and women who have been killed by the hands of police officers for no reason other than improper training and bias. That is the topic. That is the focus of the movement. End that...and you will end the responses to these deaths that you disagree with.
    06-02-2020 08:33 PM
  13. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I would argue that Police should be held to a higher standard than the general public when it comes to committing violent crimes. They are trained as such in how to handle different situations including, first always, how to deescalate.

    Since I’m in the healthcare industry (RN), it would be like asking if mistakes by nurses and doctors is out of control and then saying “not more than the general public”. I should be held to a higher standard because, again, I have been trained and educated on medical procedures, medication use, etc.

    I’m not sure if that comparison works to explain my view but....I gave it a try!
    Well stated....
    06-02-2020 08:34 PM
  14. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    But literally, nobody argued that violence by police was on par or outnumbered violence perpetuated by non-police. You introduced an argument nobody was making. You keep acting like you’re a victim here being told how and what to think. Nobody is telling you that. What we are saying is that it’s disingenuous for you to inject an argument nobody made. Of course there is more violence committed by non-police. But what does that have to do with the FACT that there is a problem with police brutality in this country? Your argument is essentially like responding to someone complaining about employee theft in a retail store by saying “Well don’t customers steal?”. Ok...yes...BUT that doesn’t negate the fact that we are discussing employee theft and THAT is a problem.

    Same thing here. Yes...people commit crimes. But that is an entirely separate point. We aren’t asking you to think like everyone else. We are asking you to focus on the topic of police brutality. If you don’t believe there is an issue, then say that. But you can’t say, “Police brutality isn’t an issue because more people commit crimes”. That’s not how this works.

    You’re “All Lives Mattering”ing this conversation and that dialog honestly isn’t helpful to the issue that people are trying to bring forth. It’s disingenuous. You’ve seen black men die at the hands of police and didn’t like it? You’ve seen non-black people die at the hands of the police and didn’t like it? Ok...what have you done to ensure it doesn’t happen again? What initiatives have you supported? So many of you want to jump into these conversations by saying, “I thought we wanted equality for everyone” yet you aren’t doing a single thing to get it. Instead, you’re entering conversations being initiated by oppressed people and saying, “Well what about....”. Rather than saying “What about”...simply go protest for those people you’re asking about. Start a movement. If you aren’t interested in being a part of the one taking place, simply don’t engage at all. It’s not that hard.

    Do I agree with the rioting and looting? Nah. I don’t. But you know what I disagree with more? The countless black men and women who have been killed by the hands of police officers for no reason other than improper training and bias. That is the topic. That is the focus of the movement. End that...and you will end the responses to these deaths that you disagree with.
    Well stated...
    06-02-2020 08:36 PM
  15. Quis89's Avatar
    I would argue that Police should be held to a higher standard than the general public when it comes to committing violent crimes. They are trained as such in how to handle different situations including, first always, how to deescalate.

    Since I’m in the healthcare industry (RN), it would be like asking if mistakes by nurses and doctors is out of control and then saying “not more than the general public”. I should be held to a higher standard because, again, I have been trained and educated on medical procedures, medication use, etc.

    I’m not sure if that comparison works to explain my view but....I gave it a try!
    Exactly. It is incredibly dangerous to imply police officers and civilians should be equated. It is irresponsible to state crime by police isn’t an issue because regular civilians commit more crime. Of course civilians commit more crime. That is literally the reason we have police.

    The crime committed by police SHOULD be zero. If there is even one crime committed by a police officer, that is too many.

    Chris Rock said it best. To summarize, his stance was some industries can’t have bad apples. Do you want to be on an airplane piloted by a “bad apple”? Absolutely not. If we can’t hold police to a higher standard than the rest of us, then why do we have them?
    TgeekB and grover5 like this.
    06-02-2020 08:38 PM
  16. TgeekB's Avatar
    Chris Rock said it best. To summarize, his stance was some industries can’t have bad apples. Do you want to be on an airplane piloted by a “bad apple”? Absolutely not. If we can’t hold police to a higher standard than the rest of us, then why do we have them?
    Well said by Chris. He’s exactly right. When you have people’s lives in your hands; someone’s mother, sister, uncle, you have to be fully mindful of your commitment to serve. If you cannot fulfill this promise, you should chose another profession.
    06-02-2020 08:55 PM
  17. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    Some of you were looking at things from one perspective whereas I was looking at it from another, but apparently since I was not looking at it like some of the others, something is clearly wrong with me. Right? Everybody’s different, but are somehow expected to act the same or think the same.
    Not at all. You came in like you usually do in these types of threads being all uppity and acting like you're posing some question that nobody else has thought of so you can feel like you're outthinking the room. Then when someone calls you out on it, there you are with, "wah! was! why can't I have my own viewpoint!" Go ahead, have your viewpoint. Ain't no-one here telling you that you have to think a certain way. Just don't expect every single person to be all proper and tiptoe around you when you're challenged. Grow a sack.

    Another word that was invoked in this thread regarding your behavior was 'disingenuous' and I think that is the best way to describe it. I already had that notion of you from my moderation days, which I have evidence of through contradictory statements through mod emails and your own posts from a time when things got a little out of control here a few years ago.

    Yes, I have invoked another subject here. See how dumb it looks?

    It's funny, after I made my comment to describe what I think you are, I got a couple of PM's from 2 regulars on here who engage in discussion with you telling me how happy they were someone finally said it. So I know I'm not the only one.

    Note to those of you who are engaged in a more civil discussion with this guy: I'd like to have the level of patience and courtesy that you all have, but unfortunately people like myself exist for a reason. I just have to outright say it.
    Quis89 likes this.
    06-03-2020 10:31 AM
  18. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Not at all. You came in like you usually do in these types of threads being all uppity and acting like you're posing some question that nobody else has thought of so you can feel like you're outthinking the room. Then when someone calls you out on it, there you are with, "wah! was! why can't I have my own viewpoint!" Go ahead, have your viewpoint. Ain't no-one here telling you that you have to think a certain way. Just don't expect every single person to be all proper and tiptoe around you when you're challenged. Grow a sack.

    Another word that was invoked in this thread regarding your behavior was 'disingenuous' and I think that is the best way to describe it. I already had that notion of you from my moderation days, which I have evidence of through contradictory statements through mod emails and your own posts from a time when things got a little out of control here a few years ago.

    Yes, I have invoked another subject here. See how dumb it looks?

    It's funny, after I made my comment to describe what I think you are, I got a couple of PM's from 2 regulars on here who engage in discussion with you telling me how happy they were someone finally said it. So I know I'm not the only one.
    Well stated....
    06-03-2020 10:32 AM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    Note to those of you who are engaged in a more civil discussion with this guy: I'd like to have the level of patience and courtesy that you all have, but unfortunately people like myself exist for a reason. I just have to outright say it.
    Thank you for speaking your mind. I believe it takes different voices, standing for the same effort, to get the message across. We need to use all means to get our message out and finally make much needed change. I appreciate your words.
    BreakingKayfabe and Quis89 like this.
    06-03-2020 12:05 PM
  20. Golfdriver97's Avatar
    Posted in a separate thread. Here’s a photo of the Walnut Street Apple Store in Philadelphia. Since the riot and looting there have been photos of people with device home screens showing Apple does indeed have the devices locked and are aware of their location. Whether the photos are shopped or Apple truly knows, it is very possible these devices are not usable. Certainly not the issue to focus on, but worthy of noting.

    Attachment 128869
    Attachment 128870
    Assuming for a moment that the photo of the device is legit, it is pretty cool that Apple is somewhat proactively deterring the use of stolen goods.
    Annie_M and TgeekB like this.
    06-03-2020 03:48 PM
  21. Lee_Bo's Avatar
    Oh you know me. Where there’s controversy, I’ll try to.....um....stimulate the conversation a bit...
    I love it. I wish I had HALF of your intellect.
    Annie_M and Tartarus like this.
    06-03-2020 06:55 PM
  22. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    I love it. I wish I had HALF of your intellect.
    (Laughing)...You are sick!...Heck, I didn’t even know I was “uppity” until it was brought to my attention........Now I feel downright special...ROTFL
    Lee_Bo and Annie_M like this.
    06-03-2020 09:04 PM
  23. Lee_Bo's Avatar
    (Laughing)...You are sick!...Heck, I didn’t even know I was “uppity” until it was brought to my attention........Now I feel downright special...ROTFL
    Well there are different levels of special.
    Just_Me_D and Annie_M like this.
    06-03-2020 09:06 PM
  24. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Well there are different levels of special.
    No doubt about that, sir.
    Annie_M likes this.
    06-03-2020 09:07 PM
  25. grover5's Avatar
    (Laughing)...You are sick!...Heck, I didn’t even know I was “uppity” until it was brought to my attention........Now I feel downright special...ROTFL
    Did you know you were being disingenuous when you introduced the straw man?
    06-04-2020 11:56 AM
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