1. mulasien's Avatar
    Senator Rand Paul (R-Ky) nailed it...

    Dangit, I keep liking this guy more and more.
    Just_Me_D, cardfan and Ipheuria like this.
    05-22-2013 12:56 AM
  2. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Dangit, I keep liking this guy more and more.
    ​Outstanding and 'nuf said....
    05-22-2013 09:57 AM
  3. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    The biggest crooks in the world going after people...accusing them of "stealing". Congress should have a HUGE pot and kettle resting in every room they meet in, so that people can go in as soon as they open their mouths in this fashion and just point at it.

    And right when Apple is bringing some jobs to Texas? Sounds like typical government action to me...bleh.
    05-22-2013 11:32 AM
  4. cardfan's Avatar
    I voted for Paul (since i'm in KY) so it's cool to see him saying the right things. What struck me is that Apple has pretty much supported democrats in the past (I think i'm right on this). There's probably a lot of democrats out there who love Apple, hate Sen. Paul, and are a bit confused right now..lol
    jclisenby and Just_Me_D like this.
    05-22-2013 11:47 AM
  5. sting7k's Avatar
    In the eyes of the law as they are written Apple is not dodging taxes.

    But IMO when I see a company with billions in cash sitting off shore it's hard to argue otherwise. Reducing taxes is part of business. Every business does it. Apple is as equally guilty as GE, Microsoft, Google, Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Starbucks, etc. To put it any other way is just blindness. These companies are evading taxes. END OF STORY.

    Now, as to how to fix this problem. I do not have the answer. It's clear we need an overhaul of the tax code in the US. Corporate profits have soared in the past 40 years. All the while corporate taxes as a proportion of total tax revenue is flat or down over that same period. How can that be if profits are up? That should mean more taxes paid if they brought in more money (if I make more money I pay more tax)...except all these companies have armies of attorney's and accountants who's job is to reduce their tax load. In the eyes of the law they are not doing any thing wrong. But in my eyes they are tax dodging cheats; all of them.
    05-22-2013 12:30 PM
  6. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    So if we want to hold people to the law, what other standard are we supposed to hold businesses to? What eyes are they supposed to answer to? They are a business, their purpose on the planet is to make as much money as possible and spend the least amount they can while doing it...the 101 of profit.

    Evading is such a negative connotation to set on a business that is simply using the system to their advantage. Who doesn't do that? I know i take every liberty i can when it comes to filing my taxes, even venturing into the questionable state for the sake of saving my pennies...but i do it according to the present laws and rules as it is understood.

    Avoiding taxes could be one way of saying it in a less accusatory way...they are avoiding taxes by using the tax code to their benefit. Why would someone do it otherwise? The code is there to preset rules and regulations, and if it's not written properly to where these kinds of things can happen (and people want it stopped), then the code needs to be rewritten...but when they do that, they better go through the whole damn thing and make sure they fix ALL of the mistakes, both for AND against the IRS.

    Now take it from me, I'm no supporter of tax dodgers...tax payers pay my salary and support my family since i work for the feds. But when a guideline is in place, that is all you have to go on, and calling a business out on it, especially in a federal court, when they are simply following said guideline, is despicable in my opinion.
    Fausty82 and Just_Me_D like this.
    05-22-2013 01:15 PM
  7. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    In the eyes of the law as they are written Apple is not dodging taxes.
    Apple has not broken the law.

    But IMO when I see a company with billions in cash sitting off shore it's hard to argue otherwise.
    Why? Why can't we put our money where we want to?
    Reducing taxes is part of business. Every business does it.
    Do you not attempt to reduce your taxes? I know I do and I do it within the confines of the law.
    Apple is as equally guilty as GE, Microsoft, Google, Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Starbucks, etc. To put it any other way is just blindness.
    Guilty of what crime?
    These companies are evading taxes. END OF STORY.
    Apple & other companies are protecting their money from being taxed to death by our greedy government and they are doing it legally. It is no different than consumers shopping around for the best deal. The Apple Store sells all of Apple's products and yet, a great deal of people will search Craig's List, Angie's List, eBay and the iMore forums looking to buy the same products at a significantly reduced price. Why is that? They want to save their money. It isn't a crime and neither is what Apple is doing. Why do people think that just because someone is wealthy financially, they cannot and should not be careful with their money? When we hear of people who were once rich lose it all, we shake our heads and call them stupid and careless, but when they take steps to maintain their wealth, we accuse them of being stingy and evading taxes.

    Now, as to how to fix this problem. I do not have the answer. It's clear we need an overhaul of the tax code in the US. Corporate profits have soared in the past 40 years.
    No doubt.
    All the while corporate taxes as a proportion of total tax revenue is flat or down over that same period. How can that be if profits are up? That should mean more taxes paid if they brought in more money (if I make more money I pay more tax)...except all these companies have armies of attorney's and accountants who's job is to reduce their tax load.
    No. Don't punish me because I make more. Taxing a million dollars at 10% (for argument's sake) is still more than taxing a thousand dollars at the same rate.
    In the eyes of the law they are not doing any thing wrong. But in my eyes they are tax dodging cheats; all of them.
    Then the next time you do your taxes, skip the part that allows for savings and credits. I wouldn't want anyone to accuse you of being a tax cheat...
    Fausty82 likes this.
    05-22-2013 01:33 PM
  8. sting7k's Avatar
    Tim Cook was not speaking in federal court. There were no judges or jury present. He was speaking a Senate subcommittee hearing which is just a show and nothing more. We are in agreement that dragging CEOs to Washington to parade on TV and harass is useless and dumb. The law that applies here is tax law. But just because these corporations are following the tax law to the letter doesn't mean they are any less of a tax dodger in my eyes. The tax law is full of special interest loop holes, deductions, and all the like that these corporations lobby to get into the code. It's not like congress comes up with these things on their own.

    I posted this comment yesterday to the main story on this topic;
    "Congress wants the tax rate they feel should be applied to Apple's off shore cash horde. No more no less. This isn't about any policy. Tim Cook could better spend his time tomorrow speaking to a wall. They see budget deficits. Across the street they see one of the most valuable companies in the world. That company happens to be American and have a massive horde of cash. Dragging CEOs to Washington for a tongue lashing looks good on TV to their voters. It makes it appear like they are working for them against the big bad tax evading corporations.

    Google is facing the same thing in the UK. Apple won't be the last here in the US. Tomorrow the sun will rise. The next news cycle will begin. Everything will be the same."

    Apple just happens to be the one getting single out this time. It could just have easily been Steve Ballmer or Larry Page up there.
    05-22-2013 01:51 PM
  9. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    Tim Cook was not speaking in federal court. There were no judges or jury present. He was speaking a Senate subcommittee hearing which is just a show and nothing more. We are in agreement that dragging CEOs to Washington to parade on TV and harass is useless and dumb. The law that applies here is tax law. But just because these corporations are following the tax law to the letter doesn't mean they are any less of a tax dodger in my eyes. The tax law is full of special interest loop holes, deductions, and all the like that these corporations lobby to get into the code. It's not like congress comes up with these things on their own.

    I posted this comment yesterday to the main story on this topic;
    "Congress wants the tax rate they feel should be applied to Apple's off shore cash horde. No more no less. This isn't about any policy. Tim Cook could better spend his time tomorrow speaking to a wall. They see budget deficits. Across the street they see one of the most valuable companies in the world. That company happens to be American and have a massive horde of cash. Dragging CEOs to Washington for a tongue lashing looks good on TV to their voters. It makes it appear like they are working for them against the big bad tax evading corporations.

    Google is facing the same thing in the UK. Apple won't be the last here in the US. Tomorrow the sun will rise. The next news cycle will begin. Everything will be the same."

    Apple just happens to be the one getting single out this time. It could just have easily been Steve Ballmer or Larry Page up there.
    I understand all of that, however, why are you calling them "tax dodging cheats"? If it's because they take steps to hold onto as much of their money as they possibly can even if it's via off-shore accounts, then why is it a problem, especially when no laws have been broken?
    Fausty82 likes this.
    05-22-2013 02:11 PM
  10. Fausty82's Avatar
    Tim Cook was not speaking in federal court. There were no judges or jury present. He was speaking a Senate subcommittee hearing which is just a show and nothing more. We are in agreement that dragging CEOs to Washington to parade on TV and harass is useless and dumb. The law that applies here is tax law. But just because these corporations are following the tax law to the letter doesn't mean they are any less of a tax dodger in my eyes. The tax law is full of special interest loop holes, deductions, and all the like that these corporations lobby to get into the code. It's not like congress comes up with these things on their own.

    I posted this comment yesterday to the main story on this topic;
    "Congress wants the tax rate they feel should be applied to Apple's off shore cash horde. No more no less. This isn't about any policy. Tim Cook could better spend his time tomorrow speaking to a wall. They see budget deficits. Across the street they see one of the most valuable companies in the world. That company happens to be American and have a massive horde of cash. Dragging CEOs to Washington for a tongue lashing looks good on TV to their voters. It makes it appear like they are working for them against the big bad tax evading corporations.

    Google is facing the same thing in the UK. Apple won't be the last here in the US. Tomorrow the sun will rise. The next news cycle will begin. Everything will be the same."

    Apple just happens to be the one getting single out this time. It could just have easily been Steve Ballmer or Larry Page up there.
    I read somewhere (can't cite the source, and may not even be true, but...) the "billions of dollars sitting offshore" is NOT profit earned in the US, but rather profits earned abroad. Only the US Congress would drag someone in to give an account of why they refuse to "repatriate" money earned overseas back into America where the government can get their greedy, slimy hands on it.

    As far as I am concerned, this is a non-issue. If they think Apple broke the law by avoiding taxes, then charge them with a crime and prosecute them. But either way, stop the "dog and pony" show and move along. There’s nothing to see here. (Yeah, greedy politicians are literally a dime/dozen.) If they don’t like the results they get from the laws "they" (and their predecessors) passed, change the law. In the mean time, go pound sand, Mr Congressman and Mr Senator.
    Just_Me_D, kch50428 and jclisenby like this.
    05-22-2013 02:14 PM
  11. cardfan's Avatar
    I read somewhere (can't cite the source, and may not even be true, but...) the "billions of dollars sitting offshore" is NOT profit earned in the US, but rather profits earned abroad. Only the US Congress would drag someone in to give an account of why they refuse to "repatriate" money earned overseas back into America where the government can get their greedy, slimy hands on it.

    As far as I am concerned, this is a non-issue. If they think Apple broke the law by avoiding taxes, then charge them with a crime and prosecute them. But either way, stop the "dog and pony" show and move along. There’s nothing to see here. (Yeah, greedy politicians are literally a dime/dozen.) If they don’t like the results they get from the laws "they" (and their predecessors) passed, change the law. In the mean time, go pound sand, Mr Congressman and Mr Senator.
    I tend to think there was a purpose. This isn't rocket science and it doesn't take much foresight to predict what the results (or publicity) of putting Apple on the stand would be. Of course Apple broke no laws It's a "dog and pony" show as you said. But is it having the desired effect? How many here had never heard of repatriate tax? Now you have. So there's been a giant spotlight put on it. It gave Sen. Paul a nice speech. It gave others (both dem and republicans) opportunities to say that tax should be lowered to single digits if not eliminated altogether.

    McCain took a hit for the team and perhaps looks like a crazy old man up there. But he's on his way out soon enough and is probably more worried about his legacy. He's been known to dabble in the middle.

    In politics, you never know what to believe. But things aren't always that obvious either. If you're angry at the Senate for doing this and want tax reform, then perhaps that was what was intended...
    05-22-2013 03:13 PM
  12. sting7k's Avatar
    Fausty you are 100% correct. Apple's cash horde is not from them trying to funnel and hide money from the feds to lower their tax bill. Apple has stated quite clearly how much off shore cash they have. This is very different than an individual with a numbered Swiss account which collects a lot of interest and then none of that income is reported to the IRS.

    There is some misunderstanding here so I'll just try to be as simple as I can.

    1. In my opinion any corporation or person who keeps their money off shore for the sole reason to not have to pay US tax on that money is dodging taxes.

    2. These companies are not committing crimes according to current US tax law. Laws that are full of special tax breaks, loop holes, and tricks that these companies paid lobbyists large sums of money to have stuffed into the tax code.

    3. Congress is just putting on their usual show for the public. This happens every few months with some industry. Apple just happened to be the one singled out this time. It is a waste of everyone's time.
    05-22-2013 03:52 PM
  13. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    ...snipped...
    There is some misunderstanding here so I'll just try to be as simple as I can.
    Not from my end.

    1. In my opinion any corporation or person who keeps their money off shore for the sole reason to not have to pay US tax on that money is dodging taxes.
    If what they were doing was illegal, I would definitely call it dodging taxes, but in this sense, however, they are protecting their wealth in compliance with current tax law...:P

    2. These companies are not committing crimes according to current US tax law. Laws that are full of special tax breaks, loop holes, and tricks that these companies paid lobbyists large sums of money to have stuffed into the tax code.
    That is my point. If what they are doing in regard to their money is not illegal then don't paint them as criminals or their actions as criminal in nature because they and it are not.

    3. Congress is just putting on their usual show for the public. This happens every few months with some industry. Apple just happened to be the one singled out this time. It is a waste of everyone's time.
    No doubt about it...
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 05-22-2013 at 05:54 PM.
    Fausty82 likes this.
    05-22-2013 05:06 PM
  14. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    Tim Cook was not speaking in federal court. There were no judges or jury present. He was speaking a Senate subcommittee hearing which is just a show and nothing more. We are in agreement that dragging CEOs to Washington to parade on TV and harass is useless and dumb. The law that applies here is tax law. But just because these corporations are following the tax law to the letter doesn't mean they are any less of a tax dodger in my eyes. The tax law is full of special interest loop holes, deductions, and all the like that these corporations lobby to get into the code. It's not like congress comes up with these things on their own.

    I posted this comment yesterday to the main story on this topic;
    "Congress wants the tax rate they feel should be applied to Apple's off shore cash horde. No more no less. This isn't about any policy. Tim Cook could better spend his time tomorrow speaking to a wall. They see budget deficits. Across the street they see one of the most valuable companies in the world. That company happens to be American and have a massive horde of cash. Dragging CEOs to Washington for a tongue lashing looks good on TV to their voters. It makes it appear like they are working for them against the big bad tax evading corporations.

    Google is facing the same thing in the UK. Apple won't be the last here in the US. Tomorrow the sun will rise. The next news cycle will begin. Everything will be the same."

    Apple just happens to be the one getting single out this time. It could just have easily been Steve Ballmer or Larry Page up there.
    I think i chose my wording improperly, and should have said in a "federal hearing"...either way though, you got my point putting silly details aside.

    As far as your opinion on what tax dodging is, that is fine...we all have opinions. In the end though, be glad you're not held legally responsible for what people FEEL...lol, our whole society would be up sh*t's creek without a paddle in that case. I mean there are a lot of things in life i don't care for, many of which there arnt laws to prevent, so i just have to accept that people do them...you may not like it, but laws exist without the prerequisite of everyone liking them, or the activities that play out due to them.

    I agree with you on one piece though, it is a total and complete waste of time...and truly a spit in the face of one of America's most successful companies (not to sound to repetitive from the video posted earlier, but it's true). It'd be like you walking into your local convenience store to buy a case of soda and the store owner tries to sue you because you used a coupon.
    Fausty82 likes this.
    05-22-2013 05:07 PM
  15. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    @Sting7k, for twenty years, almost every decision I made at work was based on the law and the interpretation of the law and I didn't have the luxury of letting feelings get in the way. At times, people thought I was being insensitive, unfair or they believed I took the side of an adversary or competitor when, in fact, my decisions were based on the law and nothing more. I simply focus on the wording of what is written or being spoken and apply it to the law and therefore, when Apple & other companies are labeled as tax cheats even though they are not breaking any laws, that contradiction rings loudly in my head......I can't help it..(laughing)....So forgive me. I do indeed understand your point of view...
    Fausty82 likes this.
    05-22-2013 05:51 PM
  16. motor96's Avatar
    I don't blame anyone who tries to pay the least amount in taxes. The government is so wasteful when it comes to our money why give them more? I'm self employed and I write off every damn thing I can legally write off. Despite what they say, I know how best to spend my money!
    kch50428, Just_Me_D and KaterinaM like this.
    05-26-2013 02:08 PM
  17. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    (snipped) Despite what they say, I know how best to spend my money!
    'Nuf said...
    05-26-2013 02:18 PM
  18. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    I don't blame anyone who tries to pay the least amount in taxes. The government is so wasteful when it comes to our money why give them more? I'm self employed and I write off every damn thing I can legally write off. Despite what they say, I know how best to spend my money!
    Amen to this. It comes down to following the rules, and Apple did just that...they broke no laws, and are not wrong in what they did. They do not deserve to be viewed as "Tax Cheats" or whatever other of the hundreds of names that mean the same thing.
    05-26-2013 03:32 PM
  19. KaterinaM's Avatar
    I don't blame anyone who tries to pay the least amount in taxes. The government is so wasteful when it comes to our money why give them more?
    We can't know for sure if Apple has or hasn't broken any law. It might have used pretty legal ways of tax envasion, so why it should be blamed? It would be another issue if EC finds that the company broke the laws ion purpose.
    05-27-2013 05:11 AM
  20. Ipheuria's Avatar
    The way I viewed the whole hearing was a repeat of the whole Foxconn thing in the sense that all the other big companies do the same things yet Apple is the one called in. Even though it was very accusatory the way I viewed it was that these politicians know the tax code is broken and needs to be fixed but they need to figure out how it should be fixed to make things better not worst. So they wanted to present all the info and their side of the story and try to come to a conclusion. My problem is if it doesn't lead to any decision so the whole thing was just a huge waste of time. My other problem is that the senators, I'm Canadian so hopefully I'm getting this right, who were very accusatory also do the same damn thing. I mean McCain's wife has a heap of money so don't tell me she doesn't use tax loopholes, offshore accounts, etc. to pay the lesat possible tax. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
    05-27-2013 12:27 PM
  21. raysivley's Avatar
    Is Apple guilty? Not really. Is it a bad look? Most likely
    05-27-2013 12:36 PM
  22. mountainman's Avatar
    05-28-2013 09:39 AM
  23. SeanHRCC's Avatar
    We can't know for sure if Apple has or hasn't broken any law. It might have used pretty legal ways of tax envasion, so why it should be blamed? It would be another issue if EC finds that the company broke the laws ion purpose.
    Actually, we can know for sure...they didn't break any laws or they would have been charged with such (since they were going after them anyways, there's no way they stop right at the cusp of charges for no reason). They had nothing...Apple highlighted pieces of the tax code that allow for big tax avoidance, and did it legally. Just because the government doesn't LIKE something doesn't mean it's illegal.
    05-28-2013 11:22 AM
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