Which product Lines Should Apple retire?

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
Yes, Apple's prices and margins are higher than nearly all the rest of the industry. However, you get much more than just the device for that price. You get a coherent (mostly) environment, a concern for user privacy, regular security updates, usually high quality construction of the device, and better than average service.

This is what a lot of people miss when they consider why Apple sells at the prices it does. For the past couple years I tried about every Android device I could get my hands on. Yes some of them were excellent and today I am still using a Note 8 with no case, no screen protector because I really don't care about it anymore and getting Samsung to fix it is a nightmare even with premium care.

The one thing none of them had was the service Apple offers. With every single one of the 15+ devices I used last year, not one had the ability to walk into a store and receive service for either a broken screen, faulty hardware etc. The all had to be shipped for service and some places had a 2-3 week waiting period for repairs (looking at you LG). I have 3 Apple stores within 30 minutes of me in 3 different directions. I can walk in with a broken screen and walk out with a new one the same day. No other manufacturer offers that level of service. That service makes up a large portion of the cost in their products and many people are more than ok with that.
 

anon(50597)

Trusted Member
Dec 2, 2008
2,073
0
0
Visit site
This is what a lot of people miss when they consider why Apple sells at the prices it does. For the past couple years I tried about every Android device I could get my hands on. Yes some of them were excellent and today I am still using a Note 8 with no case, no screen protector because I really don't care about it anymore and getting Samsung to fix it is a nightmare even with premium care.

The one thing none of them had was the service Apple offers. With every single one of the 15+ devices I used last year, not one had the ability to walk into a store and receive service for either a broken screen, faulty hardware etc. The all had to be shipped for service and some places had a 2-3 week waiting period for repairs (looking at you LG). I have 3 Apple stores within 30 minutes of me in 3 different directions. I can walk in with a broken screen and walk out with a new one the same day. No other manufacturer offers that level of service. That service makes up a large portion of the cost in their products and many people are more than ok with that.

While I agree with your point, that the services that Apple provides are excellent, I also want to point out a couple things.
First, does that equate to such a price hike? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t.
Second, I have never used said service because I have never had an issue with my Apple devices. That both points to the quality of their devices but also why should I pay for such an expensive service I never use? I know, it’s like a very expensive insurance policy, but shouldn’t we have a choice?
I only bring this up to look at things from a different viewpoint. I think it’s important we are allowed to discuss these things in a fan forum.
 

Annie_M

Moderator
Mar 2, 2016
22,001
784
113
Visit site
I rather like the fact that Apple offers a wide variety of products. It gives customers the ability to choose what fits their needs, and their wallet. Yes they are high end, but as many others have said far more brilliantly than I could, their outstanding service and support comes with that. So I think it's reasonable that they keep the number products available. As for the Homepod, I tend to agree with @Sherry_B
 

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
While I agree with your point, that the services that Apple provides are excellent, I also want to point out a couple things.
First, does that equate to such a price hike? Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t.
Second, I have never used said service because I have never had an issue with my Apple devices. That both points to the quality of their devices but also why should I pay for such an expensive service I never use? I know, it’s like a very expensive insurance policy, but shouldn’t we have a choice?
I only bring this up to look at things from a different viewpoint. I think it’s important we are allowed to discuss these things in a fan forum.

Absolutely we can discuss it but at the same time we have to be open minded beyond our personal feelings towards a product and realize that while we personal do not like something, there is enough data to prove its large success.

As for paying for the service that you don't use, theres a couple ways to look at it. You are paying for that convenience if you ever do need it. I personally have used it quite a bit. When you buy their products you are acknowledging that part of that cost is to maintains the Apple stores and its employees and the convenience they offer. Its how Apple has decided to price their products to maintain such convenience and overwhelmingly people have accepted that. The beneficial service is optional with AppleCare. Thats the service that to me gets used most often.

Now should you remove that cost into the product and shut down all your stores, what separates you from the Samsungs, LG's etc of the world? With Apple you are almost always paying for convenience and quality. You can't expect to get that kind of quality while making the very things that make them the company they are optional.

You don't just buy a device from them, you buy the brand and the service that comes with it. Thats how Apple's marketed themselves and been so successful.
 

anon(50597)

Trusted Member
Dec 2, 2008
2,073
0
0
Visit site
You don't just buy a device from them, you buy the brand and the service that comes with it. Thats how Apple's marketed themselves and been so successful.

I actually totally agree with you on this. It is how Apple has marketed, and it obviously has worked. It was brilliant actually. What I’m pointing out is why it’s not best for such a large number of people. While Apple actually has a small market share, they have marketed their devices in such a way to have high prices and make up for it. Again, it has worked, at least until now. There was a lot of negative press about the X costing so much and I’m not sure we know actual sales figures to see if it was a success or not.

I enjoy looking and different sides and just want to reflect your advice back to you, be open minded beyond your personal feelings and don’t always think if someone has a critical view it means they do not like something.
 

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
I actually totally agree with you on this. It is how Apple has marketed, and it obviously has worked. It was brilliant actually. What I’m pointing out is why it’s not best for such a large number of people. While Apple actually has a small market share, they have marketed their devices in such a way to have high prices and make up for it. Again, it has worked, at least until now. There was a lot of negative press about the X costing so much and I’m not sure we know actual sales figures to see if it was a success or not.

I enjoy looking and different sides and just want to reflect your advice back to you, be open minded beyond your personal feelings and don’t always think if someone has a critical view it means they do not like something.

For the record, I dont care for Apple products as a whole. I find more features jn other devices to fit my techy impulses. I primarily use Android and Windows devices for the shear customization. I just also happen to own pretty much every Apple product except the HomePod. Its a nasty hobby that cant seem to shake.

The one thing I dont get though is criticizing a device that someone has never bothered to try. Especially on a forum that is built around those devices.
 

Ken Magel

Well-known member
Mar 20, 2014
309
0
0
Visit site
I think every technology device should be updated in a significant way at least once a year. Apple is unable to do that. That is why I think they should reduce their product lines.
 

anon(50597)

Trusted Member
Dec 2, 2008
2,073
0
0
Visit site
I think every technology device should be updated in a significant way at least once a year. Apple is unable to do that. That is why I think they should reduce their product lines.

If that were the determining factor we wouldn’t have most technological devices. Most are small incremental changes that are often marketed as more than they are. That’s why most people don’t update every year.
Technology can’t always improve that quickly. It would be cool if it could though.
 

Sherry_B

Well-known member
Jan 15, 2016
2,687
0
0
Visit site
I think every technology device should be updated in a significant way at least once a year. Apple is unable to do that. That is why I think they should reduce their product lines.

The hardware in an iPhone is extremely well made and lasts for many, many years. The OS get's updated with new features (whether we like those updates or not or if we agree with their prices is for another thread), and as long as the hardware on their currently sold devices works with the new OS updates there is no logical reason to retire them. Even the Homepod, regardless of what I personally think of it.
 

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
Android is the platform 100's of companies use, not a brand. Brands hold market share and those brands hold the markets where their customers have access to them easily they maintain brand loyalty. India and the Moto series is a prime example.

Android is not a smart phone manufacturer, if that's what you are trying to say. However it is a brand and it does hold market share. But this "what is a brand" discussion seems off topic.

Nobody said you couldn't discuss it. The problem is when you can't look outside of your own opinion and see the facts that disagree with your opinion. Case in point, you think the SE looks prehistoric but obviously millions of people don't feel that way, hence the leading phone in the UK. You want them to drop a phone that has proven to be one of the most successful designs in years. It just doesn't make sense for them to do that.

The Ford Model T was one of the most successful designs in history. It sold millions. Are you suggesting that Ford should still sell it today?

Im clearly looking at it from the point of the customer, thats where I got my figures that disagree with your claims. The customers have spoken and it shows by Apples market share and the huge success of their products, especially the SE. What more does the iPhone need that you think its missing? It handles every single aspect of iOS 11 and does so quite well. Until they change iOS' limitations, what more does the hardware need to add? But even with these limitations, Apple is thriving.

Apple is indeed thriving but that's not interesting to me as a customer. Why would I care about Apple's level of profit? Are you arguing that I should buy an Apple phone just because Apple are very profitable?

What do I think is missing from the iPhone SE? For me, the 4 inch screen is completely kills it. I haven't used a phone with such a small screen for more than half a decade, and even my EUR 130 phone from earlier posts has a better screen. I haven't evaluated it any further.

Put the 6S camera up against the OnePlus 5t, Huawei Mate 9, any of the Motorolas, the LG G6, and tell me that it doesn't compete and in many cases beat out those devices. Compare battery life with those phones (besides the mate 9) and tell me it doesn't compete. Compare reliability and usage against those phones and it still competes. What more do you want from a 3 year old device? Then put the level of service and support that comes with the 6S versus any other brand out there and tell me it doesn't deserve the price tag it commands and easily sells for today.

OK... the iPhone 6S does not deserve the price tag it commands today. I don't want a three year old device that costs EUR 530. If Apple introduce a new more competitive phone at that price (as some rumours suggest they will) I would be interested.

As for your other points, it is very strange to compare the Motorola E4 (my EUR 130 phone (*) ) with the iPhone 6S which costs literally four times as much!
I'm not really interested in a feature by feature comparison of some random phones against the 6S, but I will point you to this review regarding battery life: https://www.theguardian.com/technol...essor-fingerprint-sensor-rubbish-battery-life

To summarise - Apple do make good products, but the new ones are currently too expensive for me and the cheaper ones are too old and uncompetitive. I hope Apple will fix this - then they can have an even higher market share! :)

(*) Actually not literally my phone, I don't currently own one but I have used it and can confirm that it's a perfectly acceptable smartphone in all regards.
 

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
I rather like the fact that Apple offers a wide variety of products. It gives customers the ability to choose what fits their needs, and their wallet. Yes they are high end, but as many others have said far more brilliantly than I could, their outstanding service and support comes with that. So I think it's reasonable that they keep the number products available. As for the Homepod, I tend to agree with @Sherry_B

Do you think it would be better if Apple made new products for the cheaper price points, rather than just cutting the price of their older devices? Because personally I think that would be better, and almost all other smart phone manufacturers do.
 

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
This is what a lot of people miss when they consider why Apple sells at the prices it does. For the past couple years I tried about every Android device I could get my hands on. Yes some of them were excellent and today I am still using a Note 8 with no case, no screen protector because I really don't care about it anymore and getting Samsung to fix it is a nightmare even with premium care.

The one thing none of them had was the service Apple offers. With every single one of the 15+ devices I used last year, not one had the ability to walk into a store and receive service for either a broken screen, faulty hardware etc. The all had to be shipped for service and some places had a 2-3 week waiting period for repairs (looking at you LG). I have 3 Apple stores within 30 minutes of me in 3 different directions. I can walk in with a broken screen and walk out with a new one the same day. No other manufacturer offers that level of service. That service makes up a large portion of the cost in their products and many people are more than ok with that.

I have always been mystified by the value people put in Apple's product support service. All the Apple products I have owned were well made and easy to use. I have never needed support for them. Do other Apple users really have so many problems?
 

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
I have always been mystified by the value people put in Apple's product support service. All the Apple products I have owned were well made and easy to use. I have never needed support for them. Do other Apple users really have so many problems?

Not gonna answer the other post as its pointless to continue trying to explain.

This one however I will. In the past 4 years I have been to the Apple store at least 20 times. I have a clumsy daughter, clumsy wife and a multitude of Apple products. Each of those times I walked out with the issue fixed and paid no more than the cost of a screen repair.

I have had an ungodly amount of Android phones and each time I had any issue I had to mail it away for at least 2 weeks. Had 4 S8 Actives that all had the failing seal issue and each one took weeks to get resolved. LG G6 with a bad camera and took 3 weeks to get it replaced after sending it in.

So yeah, the convenience of Apple support is well worth the cost.
 

Annie_M

Moderator
Mar 2, 2016
22,001
784
113
Visit site
Well, haven't they already done that with both the 2017 and 2018 iPads? And of course, they came out with the 5c a few years back. I think it's fine to offer a wider variety of lower priced items as part of a bigger line. I don't want to see them going economy all the way!
 

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
Not gonna answer the other post as its pointless to continue trying to explain.

Let me put it another way - if customers prefer older phones as you claim (iPhone 6S, SE, etc), why do Apple record their highest sales in Q4, which is the quarter in which they launch their new models?

This one however I will. In the past 4 years I have been to the Apple store at least 20 times. I have a clumsy daughter, clumsy wife and a multitude of Apple products. Each of those times I walked out with the issue fixed and paid no more than the cost of a screen repair.

Twenty times? Are you serious? This is why I would never buy mobile phone insurance such as Apple Care! (don't know if you do, of course)

I have had an ungodly amount of Android phones and each time I had any issue I had to mail it away for at least 2 weeks. Had 4 S8 Actives that all had the failing seal issue and each one took weeks to get resolved. LG G6 with a bad camera and took 3 weeks to get it replaced after sending it in.

So yeah, the convenience of Apple support is well worth the cost.

I remain mystified by the number of problems people on this site have with mobile phones. I have owned Apple mobile products and Android-based mobile products, and have never had a problem with any of them that required the product to be returned or repaired. I am also aware of typical return rates for consumer electronics products (I have worked in the industry) and people here experience orders of magnitude more problems than typical consumers, both with Apple and non-Apple products.
 
Last edited:

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
Well, haven't they already done that with both the 2017 and 2018 iPads? And of course, they came out with the 5c a few years back. I think it's fine to offer a wider variety of lower priced items as part of a bigger line. I don't want to see them going economy all the way!

I fear that too many people either don't read my posts or don't understand them.

I absolutely agree that Apple should offer a range of products, from cheaper to more expensive. Almost all mobile phone manufacturers do this. However, Apple do this differently to other manufacturers. Most refresh their whole range more or less every year. Check out, for example, Nokia. They recently announced a complete new set of products, so if you buy a "Nokia 5 2018", it is a new and better product than a "Nokia 5 2017", for the same price.

Apple don't do this. Apple mostly take models from earlier years and cut the price - so the 6S was the top of the range model in 2015 but is now only the fourth best model in the range, although it still costs a staggering EUR 530. I am arguing that Apple should scrap these archaic older models and introduce genuinely competitive new models at the lower price, as other manufacturers do.

The iPhone SE was a slightly different case when it was introduced. It took a very old exterior case (four years old at the time, I believe) and put in more modern internals. This still resulted in a phone that was much worse than other phones available at the same price - e.g. tiny screen, huge bezels, etc. Now the SE has been around for two years, and this means that in 2018 Apple are still selling a phone with an external design from 2012, and - this is hard to believe - they still want EUR 330 for it.

Various people here claim that this doesn't hurt Apple's sales but I disagree. I think this is the point that our friend TylerLV76 feels so strongly about, but personally I would not spend EUR 530 on a phone that is three years old. This means that Apple have no viable products for me to buy. I think many other people would agree with me, and that Apple would sell a lot more products if they made a phone at, say, EUR 500 which was modern and competitive at that price.

BTW, it is rumoured that Apple will do exactly what I am saying this year - check out the links in my earlier post. We will have to wait and see, of course, but I hope they do.
 

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
Let me put it another way - if customers prefer older phones as you claim (iPhone 6S, SE, etc), why do Apple record their highest sales in Q4, which is the quarter in which they launch their new models?

Various people here claim that this doesn't hurt Apple's sales but I disagree. I think this is the point that our friend TylerLV76 feels so strongly about, but personally I would not spend EUR 530 on a phone that is three years old.

Ok look, one last time since you insist on continuing on about this. If what you say is true for anyone besides you, why is the SE the highest sold phone in the UK and wildly successful still in the U.S.? The 2 regions Apple focuses on. You wouldn't buy it but millions of people are. I don't lower my costs when my sales numbers are high. I lower them when sales start to fall.

Please stop comparing cheap throw away Android phones with phones that have proven are useful even with current updates this many years later. We get it, you don't want pay the prices that Apple successfully sells millions of phones at. They are #2 in the market at these prices and I highly doubt they are going to cut them back to your liking. Even the rumored $550 upcoming iPhone won't satisfy you because it is also rumored that they will remove features from that device so it doesn't take away from the higher end models.

What you're suggesting they do, to suit you, is business suicide. You want them to introduce a cheap model that will be lacking features that will take sales away from their flagship devices. This will not only decrease profits but will cause them to have a model that doesn't stack up after the first year.

Theres a reason the companies you keep comparing never break the top 3 in market share and its because this is what they do. LG, Lenovo, etc. They sell lower quality phones that diminish their sales and reputation. Apple doesn't need to do this nor should they. They built a reputation on quality and features, not on offering cheap alternatives. Even the 3 year old devices have better cameras and run the OS better than even some of todays flagships.


Twenty times? Are you serious? This is why I would never buy mobile phone insurance such as Apple Care! (don't know if you do, of course)

Yes at least 20 times. I have MacBooks, phones, watches and iPads in my house used by 4 people. A couple of them are pretty clumsy. This is EXACTLY why I buy AppleCare. Had I not I would have spent more than double what I paid to have these devices fixed. I use my AppleCare on every device. I sell my devices at top dollar when I upgrade and AppleCare makes sure I can do that.


I remain mystified by the number of problems people on this site have with mobile phones. I have owned Apple mobile products and Android-based mobile products, and have never had a problem with any of them that required the product to be returned or repaired. I am also aware of typical return rates for consumer electronics products (I have worked in the industry) and people here experience orders of magnitude more problems than typical consumers, both with Apple and non-Apple products.

I bought I believe a total of 16 Android phones last year (its pretty well documented on Android Central). I bought so many because I couldn't find an Android phone that I actually enjoyed using for more than a week or 2 besides the Mate 9, LG G6 (that one only lasted a month) and the note 8. Not a single one of those had the convenience, if I dropped the phone and broke the screen, that Apple has. Many of them had issues (I misspoke about the 4 S8 Actives, it was the S7 Active). Not one of those companies I tried had a store I could walk into and get a same day repair.

You buy what 1 or 2 phones a year? Of course you wouldn't have the issues I had when I bought 16. Every Android flagship that came out last year, except the Note 8, had some kind of well documented issue. Even Samsungs flagships had it with the tinted screens on the S8 series.


The bottom line is this. You want a cheaper way to be apart of the Apple ecosystem. You feel they are too expensive and it prevents you from buying their products. The problem is, based on the amount of sales they turn out year after year, you are in the minority. They are absolutely killing it at their current price points for almost all of their devices (HomePod excluded). When you are as successful as they are at these prices there is zero reason to lower them. Even their 3 year old devices outsell many of the most recent flagship devices that cost less.

The sad part about this all is I am not a fan of Apples OS and leadership. They are dated OS wise and need a serious upgrade and I blame Tim Cook and Jony Ivy for this. Even with that opinion, here I am typing this on a Macbook Pro, wearing my Apple Watch, playing music off my iPhone X on my AirPods. For someone who's not a fan of Apple, you gotta ask why Im surrounded by all their products...
 

Ken Magel

Well-known member
Mar 20, 2014
309
0
0
Visit site
How about if Apple were to consolidate their hardware offerings to the following:
1. 1 desktop (Mac) line with a variety of memory and display sizes;
2. 1 desktop professional line in two sizes with user expandable memory and other peripherals;
3. On regular laptop line in 11", 13" and 15" sizes;
4. A low cost IPad line in 9.7 inch size
5. An IPad Pro line in 10.5 and 12.9 inch sizes
6. An Apple Pencil
7. An Apple Watch in two sizes with aluminum and stainless steel
8. A HomePad single model with greatly improved Siri and at least one audio out port
9. Of course, at least three models of the IPhone: a 4" screen, a 5.5" screen and a larger model.

Then they could limit their software line to:
1. IWorks
2. Siri
3. IMovie
4. ICloud
5. Garage Band
6. Swift Playgrounds
7. IBooks
8. XCode for Mac and for IOS
and, of course, IOS and Mac OS.

Still seems like a lot for one company to keep competitive, but perhaps Apple could do so.
 
Last edited:

anony_mouse

Well-known member
Jul 21, 2014
622
0
0
Visit site
Ok look, one last time since you insist on continuing on about this. If what you say is true for anyone besides you, why is the SE the highest sold phone in the UK and wildly successful still in the U.S.? The 2 regions Apple focuses on. You wouldn't buy it but millions of people are. I don't lower my costs when my sales numbers are high. I lower them when sales start to fall.

(snipped the rest for brevity)

And you don't get my point. I have not argued that Apple should introduce cheaper products (although that is an interesting idea to discuss another time). I have argued that Apple should make their cheaper products better - not just reuse old products from several years ago. You claim I would be unhappy with a cheaper new product because it would not have all the features of the most expensive product. That is utter nonsense - of course it would be "less good" in some way than the more expensive products but if Apple make good decisions it can still be a perfectly good product for the price. This is the game for any mobile phone manufacturer, or most manufacturers of anything.

Apple have around 14% market share for smart phones world wide. If they improve their cheaper products, they could win back some of the 86% they don't currently have.
 

TylerLV76

Well-known member
Dec 23, 2017
387
0
0
Visit site
And you don't get my point. I have not argued that Apple should introduce cheaper products (although that is an interesting idea to discuss another time). I have argued that Apple should make their cheaper products better - not just reuse old products from several years ago. You claim I would be unhappy with a cheaper new product because it would not have all the features of the most expensive product. That is utter nonsense - of course it would be "less good" in some way than the more expensive products but if Apple make good decisions it can still be a perfectly good product for the price. This is the game for any mobile phone manufacturer, or most manufacturers of anything.

Apple have around 14% market share for smart phones world wide. If they improve their cheaper products, they could win back some of the 86% they don't currently have.

So you want the cheaper products to have better specs? But you feel the cheaper products are priced too high with the current specs? Cant have it both ways.

Im not sure you realize how big 14% worldwide actually is.

This was a thread to discuss what Apple should eliminate, not what you want to pay to be part of the Apple ecosystem. I have explained repeatedly why Apple would be foolish to eliminate the SE, as you suggested, and even why they have priced it and other devices the way they do. We have taken up enough of the thread on this nonsense. Its time to let the thread get back on topic.
 

Trending Posts

Forum statistics

Threads
260,379
Messages
1,766,633
Members
441,240
Latest member
williams77