1. vesperdem's Avatar
    Your experience with playlists isn't typical. That's not how it's "supposed" to work.
    ...
    I'm not quite clear from your response, but do you have iCloud Library enabled in iTunes?
    Yep, I have it enabled.

    It sounds like everything is hosed up for you and it really might make sense to scrap it all and start fresh. I'm not trying to dissuade you from using Spotify, just trying to give you a chance to experience Apple Music the way it's supposed to work, good and bad, so you can get make a fair comparison. What you are describing isn't the typical experience.
    Actually, I have scrapped everything and started fresh. Twice. It's how I was able to get a playlist on my desktop to finally appear on my iPhone.

    I'm not going to go as far as restoring my phone to factory settings, that's a bit extreme to me and since my phone is my "Home's phone", I don't like the idea of being "inaccessible" even for just half an hour. Plus, Apple can't expect the millions of users they have to be doing this when they first turn on Apple Music.

    What attracted me to the idea of Apple's Music service was the "seemless" interaction with music on my phone already, music I have in my iCloud library and new music I want to add via Apple Music. When iOS 9 comes out and I'm finally able to tell iOS that I don't want music to stream if the phone is connected to cellular data as opposed to WiFi, then I would feel comfortable about using the service as described. However, right now, I don't have that option and I can't afford to have data overage charges like I have in the past.

    I'm not giving up on Apple Music. However, I don't expect any updates to the "client" or iPhone software until iOS 9 is released. I can't imagine Apple is going to push another iOS 8 update before 9 is released.
    07-29-2015 12:14 PM
  2. crankerchick's Avatar
    To disable the app from using data, go to Settings > ITunes & App Store and turn off the cellular option. There's also a similar toggle in settings > cellular for the music. The first one seems like it will affect streaming and downloads. The second one might block cellular completely so even browsing Apple music. Not sure.

    I don't think Apple expects millions of people to start fresh. Millions of people also aren't having your issues either.

    You can also call or get web support from Apple about this.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk
    07-29-2015 03:08 PM
  3. crankerchick's Avatar
    There's rumors of 8.4.1 but who really knows.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk
    07-29-2015 03:08 PM
  4. crankerchick's Avatar
    Also there are plenty of things to be fixed that will be server side fixes as opposed to iOS updates. Forums will help you stay up to date on updates if you turn Apple music off completely.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk
    07-29-2015 03:09 PM
  5. vesperdem's Avatar
    To disable the app from using data, go to Settings > ITunes & App Store and turn off the cellular option. There's also a similar toggle in settings > cellular for the music. The first one seems like it will affect streaming and downloads. The second one might block cellular completely so even browsing Apple music. Not sure.
    The iTunes & App Store "Use Cellular Data" option is for purchasing apps/music/books/updates. Not for streaming music in Apple Music.

    Millions of people also aren't having your issues either.
    You don't know that, just like I don't know if millions of people are having problems with it. I would hope that 99% are not having problems. However, when I see people like Jim Dalrymple are having confusion, I have to assume that there are quite a few that are having issues.

    You can also call or get web support from Apple about this.
    I posted, pretty much, a copy of the questions I put here on Apple's support forums. No response yet.

    There's rumors of 8.4.1 but who really knows.
    It would be nice if they make bug fixes in Apple Music with that possible update. Time will tell...
    07-29-2015 03:33 PM
  6. crankerchick's Avatar
    The iTunes & App Store "Use Cellular Data" option is for purchasing apps/music/books/updates. Not for streaming music in Apple Music.



    You don't know that, just like I don't know if millions of people are having problems with it. I would hope that 99% are not having problems. However, when I see people like Jim Dalrymple are having confusion, I have to assume that there are quite a few that are having issues.



    I posted, pretty much, a copy of the questions I put here on Apple's support forums. No response yet.



    It would be nice if they make bug fixes in Apple Music with that possible update. Time will tell...
    But even your experience wasn't Jim's experience. Jim had all the commonly seen complaints with the bonus of his music getting deleted when he turned Apple music off. Your playlist syncing experience isn't among the common complaints against the service. You're right, I don't know how many people are experiencing your problem but I know it's not the common complaint seen in the forums (I hang out in the Apple Community forums too).

    The Apple community forums are not by Apple. They are just forums of people like you and me here on iMore helping each other out. Apple tech support doesn't respond on those forums. For support from Apple you would need to contact Apple by calling or doing a web chat.

    That toggle in the iTunes section includes iTunes Match and Apple music (it says so and I can tell you so from using it with iTunes Match before Apple music launched). Its just I don't if it includes actually streaming or just downloads. It's also a catch all so it means disabling it for all services (which is why I wouldn't turn it off). I can easily test if it includes streaming but I'm sure you've already tried. Have you tried the location in settings > cellular that I mentioned?


    Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk
    07-29-2015 04:23 PM
  7. vesperdem's Avatar
    But even your experience wasn't Jim's experience. Jim had all the commonly seen complaints with the bonus of his music getting deleted when he turned Apple music off. Your playlist syncing experience isn't among the common complaints against the service. You're right, I don't know how many people are experiencing your problem but I know it's not the common complaint seen in the forums (I hang out in the Apple Community forums too).
    I wasn't saying that there are millions of people experiencing my exact problem. I'm saying that there are a lot of people probably experiencing problems that don't post on these forums or even know about iMore or Apple's support forums.


    The Apple community forums are not by Apple.
    I'm well aware that Apple doesn't use it's "community" forums for tech support. I mentioned them because it's where I go before making any attempts at contacting Apple.
    That toggle in the iTunes section includes iTunes Match and Apple music
    Your right, it does say that. I missed that when I was looking at it earlier. However I have had that setting off for quite some time now. Maybe I need to toggle it on then off again for Apple Music to see that it's disabled and not attempt to access the internet when playing music if not on WiFi. I'll check into that...

    Have you tried the location in settings > cellular that I mentioned?
    Yep, I tried that as well. It's hard to say for sure that it is or is not accessing the music servers when they are off. The only indication I have seen is the spinning dots next to the WiFi signal strength in the upper left corner of the screen. I see those dots spinning on songs in playlists set to be played offline.
    07-29-2015 05:47 PM
  8. crankerchick's Avatar
    I've seen a lot of questions related to Apple Music go unanswered on the community forums so I wouldn't hold my breath.

    The only indicator I ever see as well is the dots next to the signal indicator. When I want to play only music saved for offline, I toggle it to show only saved music. I've never switched off my data to verify it's truly not streaming so I don't know if it's actually truly not streaming. I have no reason to believe it isn't, and my battery life certainly suggest that it's not.

    What kind of feedback does Spotify give that it's playing local music? On Google Music there's no indicator either. When I last had Rdio I don't remember any indicator either. Whenever I was interested in not using data (usually because of poor service) or to preserve battery life, I set all of those different services to only show me offline music.

    Is your complaint that it's hard to know what music is available offline, or that you don't know when it is streaming versus when it is playing local music?
    07-29-2015 07:50 PM
  9. vesperdem's Avatar
    ... I wouldn't hold my breath.
    I'm not. I really don't expect an answer. I did help someone on their forums with a question about moving files that have been ripped to the iPhone when it's connected to the computer with iTunes.

    I have no reason to believe it isn't, and my battery life certainly suggest that it's not.
    Battery life is not the concern here. I listen to music on my phone mostly when I am away from my WiFi. I have been hit before with a very expensive data overage charge due to not realizing that I wasn't connected to my WiFi even though I was just outside my house.

    I have switched Apple Music to only display saved music, but it's spotty when it comes to actually showing tracks that should be there. For example, I just did a search for a band, added a track from that band to My Music and also made it available offline. I canceled the search and saw the song being downloaded, but it didn't appear in the list of bands that are available for offline playback. It shows up in the "Songs" list, but not in the Artist or Albums list.

    What kind of feedback does Spotify give that it's playing local music?
    When you go into a Playlist, there is an on/off toggle called Available Offline. When you switch to on, the app downloads all the tracks in the list. There are indicators (little green down arrows) on the tracks and oddly, some tracks have that arrow and some don't. I'm not sure what it means (I need to do some research on that little green arrow). To be fair, I can't verify if it's playing from in my phone (other than it downloaded the tracks). When I ask it to play a song that I haven't downloaded, it plays without any indication that it downloaded it or is streaming it.

    Is your complaint that it's hard to know what music is available offline, or that you don't know when it is streaming versus when it is playing local music?
    Both I suppose. Only because I don't want to use cellular data when listening to music away from home. Seeing that network indicator spin when playing tracks makes me very nervous when it comes to playing music away from WiFi.
    07-29-2015 08:55 PM
  10. crankerchick's Avatar
    Yes I get that your biggest concern is data usage. I was just noting that when I'm playing songs that I have downloaded to my device, I believe they are truly not being streamed because my battery life is better. Streaming seems to burn about twice the battery on my iPhone 6 Plus as playing local music. Streaming in apple music (via wifi) seems to consume more battery than Google Music (in my completely non-scientific, purely anecdotal observations). My indicator that I'm playing local music, aside from trusting that it's only showing local music when I tell it to, is that my battery life is much better, as is to be expected.

    It sounds like Spotify and Apple have the same type of indicator, with a little icon on the track indicating it's downloaded. Now that I think about it, Google Music does this too. The problem with the Music app right now is that the stupid indicator gets confused when you make a playlist or album (or entire artists' catalogue) available offline. It doesn't set the icon for the individual songs in that case.

    I have strong confidence that will be fixed sooner rather than later. Seems like that's an iOS update versus server side update. Like I said before, this problem existed with iTunes Match and was resolved in a subsequent update soon enough. It's ridiculous that it's back now, but I'm sure it will be fixed.

    None of the services truly have a streaming versus non-streaming indicator. The only way to know for sure is to kill data to the app (or go into airplane mode of course). Beyond that, you are just trusting that the app is streaming based on it indicating the song is available offline.

    A work around is to use the make available offline for every song, but that's just stupid and time consuming to do.

    As for a song not being available offline after you've made it so, I guess I've experienced that. I have experienced a song failing to download and not indicating such. Before iOS 8.4, every song had a down arrow next to it (or maybe a cloud, I can't remember) and when the song was available offline, the arrow (or cloud, I think it was definitely a cloud) went away. So if a song failed to download, you could see it was either stuck downloading, with some portion of the download circle not being full, or failed (the arrow would come back).

    They will get that back. If there is an 8.4.1 update, I think it will be fixed there, and if not than I'd be surprised if it isn't fixed by the time iOS 9 comes. They fixed it "quickly" with iTunes Match. That is of course assuming it's not a server side fix. Seems like it shouldn't be a server side fix, but I don't really know.
    Last edited by crankerchick; 07-29-2015 at 10:07 PM.
    07-29-2015 09:29 PM
  11. Tartarus's Avatar
    Both I suppose. Only because I don't want to use cellular data when listening to music away from home. Seeing that network indicator spin when playing tracks makes me very nervous when it comes to playing music away from WiFi.
    So, to make sure you don't use cellular data for music, there are 3 switches to be toggled off.
    1 Settings > Cellular > Music
    2 Settings > Music > Playback & Downloads
    3 Settings > iTunes & App Stores > Music

    It could be you're on 8.4 and don't have one of these toggles. Don't worry, just look for anything music and cellular data related in settings and toggle them of.
    07-29-2015 10:06 PM
  12. vesperdem's Avatar
    I was just noting that when I'm playing songs that I have downloaded to my device,
    Sorry, I didn't realize...

    The problem with the Music app right now is that the stupid indicator gets confused when you make a playlist or album (or entire artists' catalogue) available offline. It doesn't set the icon for the individual songs in that case.
    In my case, when I tell a playlist to download for offline playback, it doesn't appear to do even that. It puts the indicator in the playlist thumbnail, but the tracks don't get downloaded. I can tell this by the network indicator spinning for a second or two on "tracks" that don't have the gray phone iconlet.

    (or go into airplane mode of course)
    I didn't think about airplane mode for testing. I'll remember that for future tests. Beats turning WiFi off and watching the network indicator.

    A work around is to use the make available offline for every song, but that's just stupid and time consuming to do.
    That is not stupid, it's what I planned to do with my music. I don't want to download all my music from Amazon to get the music back on my computer. I want to use what ever streaming service I wind up with as my library. I'll download tracks that are not available and leave the rest to the service. I don't mind the fairly short amount of time it takes to download the tracks I want to listen to. I don't have a massive storage iPhone. Just a 16GB, so I only have a few Gig's available for music anyway.
    07-30-2015 12:08 AM
  13. vesperdem's Avatar
    1� Settings > Cellular > Music
    2� Settings > Music > Playback & Downloads
    3� Settings > iTunes & App Stores > Music
    That had better not be the final way to make sure music doesn't stream over cellular. That's just ridiculous that three separate locations have to be adjusted. A single central setting should be the only way to tell Apple Music to not stream over cellular data.

    Also, you are right, I don't have #2. A lot of people don't have that since it's a iOS 9 Beta option.

    ---

    So apparently, that network indicator is spinning for some other reason. I switched to Airplane mode and attempted to play songs that I thought were not downloaded in a playlist even though the list was set to offline mode. They played just fine. In fact, when in Airplane mode, Apple Music switches to showing only songs that are physically on the device. Gray iconlet or no, the tracks were available to play. I can't explain why the network activity indicator spins when not in Airplane mode.

    Still, it's good to see that its working better than I thought. Now if they fix the issue with not updating the phone when making changes on a desktop and also adding some tracks from on the phone too. They might just have a contender.
    07-30-2015 12:20 AM
  14. Tartarus's Avatar
    Yeah, those three options aren't the way to make sure cellular isn't used. I pointed them only out to make sure you won't get to pay for overage.

    The only option you'll have to disable is #2 on iOS 9. Till that time, #1 is the way to go.

    #3 is for downloading purchased music in iTunes on your desktop automatically over cellular data to your iDevice.
    07-30-2015 12:23 AM
  15. crankerchick's Avatar
    Yeah, those three options aren't the way to make sure cellular isn't used. I pointed them only out to make sure you won't get to pay for overage.

    The only option you'll have to disable is #2 on iOS 9. Till that time, #1 is the way to go.

    #3 is for downloading purchased music in iTunes on your desktop automatically over cellular data to your iDevice.
    I figured #1 is for streaming and #3 is for downloads. Thanks for confirming. The problem with #1 for me would be if I did care about data usage, I would only care for the streaming part, but not for just loading content from Apple Music. For example I want it to load artist pages when on cellular. I would want it to let me the see the New and For You tabs or check and see if a song I want to get later is available, I just wouldn't want it to allow me to actually stream or download the song. The option in the cellular section presumably doesn't let the app use data at all in the Music app, with no exceptions.


    Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk
    07-30-2015 06:13 AM
  16. crankerchick's Avatar
    Ok so the cellular option in Settings > iTunes & App Store definitely applies to streaming and not just downloads. I just confirmed it today. I don't know how much more plain it can get than to just toggle that and it won't allow you to stream over cellular. It will let you browse Apple Music, it just will prompt you to enable cellular to actually play music. Between that and the option to actually only show music available offline, it's pretty easy to make sure you don't use data. The setting to show only offline music used to be in settings, making it inconvenient to toggle on and off. Having it right in the music app means you can disable cellular streaming always and then toggle between showing offline music only when you are away from wifi.

    Looking forward to having the option in iOS 9 that looks like we will be able to break this away from being linked to automatic downloads for updates and apps.

    It's not something I'll use often but I'll want the option to do it to be isolated to only the music app like it used to be before iOS 8.4.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    07-30-2015 08:41 PM
  17. vesperdem's Avatar
    I've been having more and more success with Apple Music now. I have a better understanding of how music that you put on your desktop is to become available to the iPhone and other devices.

    I found out that music has to be either on Apple's server as an Apple Music track, or uploaded to iCloud Music Library in order to be accessible on your iDevice. I attempted to put tracks into a playlist and was told that only tracks in the iCloud Music Library can be added to an iCloud Music Library Playlist.

    I'm concerned that the music I have downloaded from my Amazon cloud backup don't appear to be uploading to the iCloud Music Library. iTunes shows the status "Waiting" but I have to specifically select tracks and select "Add to iCloud Music Library" in order for those tracks to get uploaded.

    I've tried Spotify, Deezer and Google Music, but none of them were as I wished they should have been.
    I've finished telling Spotify about the songs I want access to and have downloaded the songs that are not available on Spotify so that they are listed in Spotify's Local Files list. I think I understand what you were saying about it now working as you wished it would.

    The "local files" songs are totally separate from the songs you selected as "Saved". This is stupid. If I want to play all songs from a band and 9 albums are in my "Saved" list and one was downloaded to my computer and is in the Local Files list, there is no way to play them all at the same time with out creating a playlist and adding all the tracks.

    Apple and iTunes has a much better interface for this and makes the tracks all visible at the same time.

    Spotify has a "Filter" option in it's menus that just do absolutely nothing. In fact, there is no way to search the music you have told Spotify you want saved in order to find some music to add to a playlist.

    If you have a small list of songs you want to listen to, then Spotify is fine, but if you have a large number you want to see, it's just horrible.

    It feels like Spotify wrote a beta client and then said it's good enough and that was that.

    In my "comparison contest", Apple has just taken the lead and is pretty far ahead of Spotify.
    crankerchick and Tartarus like this.
    07-31-2015 08:54 PM
  18. Tartarus's Avatar
    Nice to see you have finally figured out Apple Music. I know it's not the easiest thing to do, but once you know how it works, you start to appreciate the way it does work. I'm talking in general of course.

    I have deleted Google Play Music Manager from my desktop a few minutes ago, as it was only uploading just a fraction of my music in my iTunes library. I had deleted my entire music library on Google Music, just to add my iTunes library back again and although I did so twice already, it didn't upload all of my songs. I was using the free Google service for Music, as I was never planning on paying for it anyway.

    But somehow I am willing to pay for Apple Music as I already said earlier. It's funny how Apple makes people do what they didn't hold for possible

    The only option I miss is auto saving 'Loved' for offline playback. My workaround is to save all loved songs in a playlist I have enabled 'Make Available Offline' for. I only have to sort on loved songs on iTunes on my desktop from time to time and add it to said playlist. My phone then automatically saves all songs offline.
    07-31-2015 09:03 PM
  19. Tartarus's Avatar
    .
    Have a look at this topic. I'm sure you will like it
    http://forums.imore.com/showthread.php?t=335302
    07-31-2015 09:16 PM
  20. vesperdem's Avatar
    The only option I miss is auto saving 'Loved' for offline playback. My workaround is to save all loved songs in a playlist I have enabled 'Make Available Offline' for. I only have to sort on loved songs on iTunes on my desktop from time to time and add it to said playlist. My phone then automatically saves all songs offline.
    Can't you make a Smart Playlist saying "Loved" "is True". I don't know about automatically downloading the tracks to an iPhone, but at least the playlist will be available. I'm trying it now, but I haven't tried adding new "Loved" tracks and seeing if the iPhone will download the new Loved tracks.
    crankerchick likes this.
    07-31-2015 09:28 PM
  21. Tartarus's Avatar
    I had to be more clear. I meant loved songs from my own Library, not from Radio or Apples playlists.

    And I haven't figured out Smart Playlists yet. I'm still in the progress of tagging and adding my brothers complete library to my own on my desktop.
    He hates tags and I love tags, so I have to go album by album, tag them with musicbrainz Picard software. If the album's not known there then I have to check it on discogs using the tag&rename software. After doing that I have to compare the tags with iTunes to see if it's the same.
    07-31-2015 09:36 PM
  22. vesperdem's Avatar
    I had to be more clear. I meant loved songs from my own Library, not from Radio or Apples playlists.
    That's what I am talking about too. I have several tracks that I have flagged as "Loved". I just created the Smart Playlist, changed the "Artist" pull down to "Loved". The "is True" was the default and clicked OK.

    I haven't had a chance to add new "Loved" tracks and see if they show and are downloaded for offline playback. I'm still uploaded hundreds of tracks to the iCloud Music Library. That pretty much saps my internet's bandwidth.
    07-31-2015 10:04 PM
  23. Tartarus's Avatar
    I don't see an option to create a smart playlist on iTunes. I only have this Many questions regarding Apple Music...-imageuploadedbytapatalk1438395163.627334.jpg
    07-31-2015 10:12 PM
  24. vesperdem's Avatar
    If you switch to the "Playlist" tab next to My Music at the top of the iTunes window, you should see a column on the left side. At the bottom of that column, there should be a "+" and a gear. The "+" is where you can add a Playlist, Smart Playlist and new Playlist Folder (don't know what those are yet).
    07-31-2015 10:27 PM
  25. Tartarus's Avatar
    Thanks, I remember seeing those options yeah. I will check it out
    07-31-2015 10:45 PM
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