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  1. #76  
    SeanHRCC's Avatar
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    All this confession stuff doesn't matter. He won the races and trained his **** off to do so. He will always be a champion and an inspiration.
    Thank you for one of the first absolutely asinine comments in our new sports section...holy sh*t man.

    My only reply to this line of thinking is this...what if he wasn't juicing and someone else won, several times, and became a god of that arena instead of him? I guess we'll never know because he took drugs to achieve his accomplishments, instead of doing it the right way like so many others did and fell to his tainted success.

    F*&k Lance Armstrong and the juiced bike he rode in on.
    "Speed has never killed anyone; suddenly becoming stationary...that's what gets you." - Jeremy Clarkson
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  2. #77  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    All this confession stuff doesn't matter.
    Yes, it does. His confession confirms that the accusations against him are indeed true and that the punishment given was justifiable and the correct course of action.
    He won the races and trained his **** off to do so.
    Yes, he did win the races and no one is questioning whether or not he trained hard, however, the one question that can never be answered is this: Would he still have won if he had not resorted to doping?
    He will always be a champion and an inspiration.
    Unfortunately, his accomplishments as an athlete will forever be discredited and his name will forever be associated with doping.
  3. #78  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    I find it very sad.

    Of course, I also don't believe that "performance enhancing drugs" should be illegal. After all, do they outlaw custom baseball bats, which are "performance enhancing?" Do they outlaw special racing shorts and shoes because they are "performance enhancing?"

    Need I go on?
  4. #79  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    I find it very sad.

    Of course, I also don't believe that "performance enhancing drugs" should be illegal. After all, do they outlaw custom baseball bats, which are "performance enhancing?" Do they outlaw special racing shorts and shoes because they are "performance enhancing?"

    Need I go on?
    Actually, yes, you should go on...mainly because those examples are things available to every player, are not illegal and are not used "behind the scenes" to gain an advantage that other athletes are unable to obtain. These performance enhancing drugs are a convenience so that higher levels of performance can be achieved without putting the manual work in to achieve them as much as a person that does not take them has to.

    Then there is the response to HGH in one person to the next...Lance Armstrong obviously was someone who highly benefited from these drugs, but the next guy in line may have had a negative reaction to it, or none at all...creating an unfair advantage amongst the pool of people attempting to achieve the same goal. I find illegal drug use in this light to be a despicable act in all sports, not just in Lance's case...baseball being the most prominent of the sports where this has been an issue lately, and honestly, those that were admitted to using or caught using it should be removed from the sport and no longer given a chance to get future achievements.

    Bottom line, the drugs are illegal, are not available to every player in a consistent and regulated manner and should remain outlawed in my opinion. Why not train harder? Why not enhance your performance by making your body a more fit tool for the job naturally? These people use these drugs to get an easier advantage at the goal they are trying to achieve with the mindset that this is the more "convenient" path...
    "Speed has never killed anyone; suddenly becoming stationary...that's what gets you." - Jeremy Clarkson
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  5. #80  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Do you mean to tell me that if I took performance enhancing drugs I'd have a shot at the NBA or NFL? Of course not! These athletes are great athletes without using drugs. Why shouldn't they be allowed to enhance their performance by any means necessary? The drugs shouldn't be illegal. It's not like they will change Joe Average into Drew Brees.
  6. #81  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Do you mean to tell me that if I took performance enhancing drugs I'd have a shot at the NBA or NFL? Of course not! These athletes are great athletes without using drugs. Why shouldn't they be allowed to enhance their performance by any means necessary? The drugs shouldn't be illegal. It's not like they will change Joe Average into Drew Brees.

    If they are great athletes without using drugs why bother then?? You're opening a HUGE can of worms if we start to allow drugs on sports..
  7. #82  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Do you mean to tell me that if I took performance enhancing drugs I'd have a shot at the NBA or NFL? Of course not! These athletes are great athletes without using drugs. Why shouldn't they be allowed to enhance their performance by any means necessary? The drugs shouldn't be illegal. It's not like they will change Joe Average into Drew Brees.
    Not at all what I'm saying...here's my point (and I'll use specific examples for clarity)...

    Drew Brees takes performance enhancers...

    Matt Ryan doesn't...

    ...they both have great years, but Drew Brees just blows all the records out of the water, has a perfect season and wins the Super Bowl. Matt Ryan does great, but misses out on any accolades like Brees achieved. Would the same thing happen without the steroids? Perhaps, but we'll never know because an illegal substance was used to uneven the playing field.

    Athletes in the same arena do not provide the same level of "chance" when it comes to accomplishing goals in the sport when some illegally use substances that are banned because they provide an unfair advantage to the user that cannot be regulated or controlled properly.
    "Speed has never killed anyone; suddenly becoming stationary...that's what gets you." - Jeremy Clarkson
  8. #83  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Right - so why can't they all take performance enhancing drugs? Think of the boost to the economy! After all, both sports and pharmaceuticals are all about the money.
  9. #84  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    I find it very sad.

    Of course, I also don't believe that "performance enhancing drugs" should be illegal. After all, do they outlaw custom baseball bats, which are "performance enhancing?" Do they outlaw special racing shorts and shoes because they are "performance enhancing?"

    Need I go on?
    The do actually outlaw some if those things. The example I can think of is the full body "shark" skin swim suits some Olympic athletes wore in 2008. The rules were changed for the 2012 games to how much of their bodies could be covered by their swim suits.
  10. #85  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Right - so why can't they all take performance enhancing drugs? Think of the boost to the economy! After all, both sports and pharmaceuticals are all about the money.
    Devil's advocate, or ... ?

    Maybe we could even legalize all drugs as a means of boosting the economy, population control, etc. and think of the tax savings from all that enforcement we would save!

    The possibilities are endless!

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  11. #86  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Right - so why can't they all take performance enhancing drugs? Think of the boost to the economy! After all, both sports and pharmaceuticals are all about the money.
    Because the results are not regulated...one guy takes the exact same PED as the guy next to him and the results will not match, and can be dangerous!

    A bat can be regulated...the exact same bat can be given to two different players and the "potential" is mirrored in both cases.

    The chemicals are not the same, and thus, should not be allowed in sport if it gives an unfair advantage.
    "Speed has never killed anyone; suddenly becoming stationary...that's what gets you." - Jeremy Clarkson
  12. #87  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    If you have to cheat to gain the upper hand, you're unworthy of playing the game, in my opinion. We, as a culture, have taken the "win by any means necessary" to the extreme and the cost of it has been devastating. Parents have attempted to take out the primary competitor to their specific child, people have overdosed & died trying to gain the advantage via performance enhancement drugs and cheating champions have been disgraced. Everybody can't win, but everybody can compete. I'm grateful to still have a conscience because I would want to know if I could win without cheating and If I found that I couldn't then I'd accept that I wasn't worthy of the victory.
  13. #88  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Specific comment to allis "drugs don't make joe average into drew brees"
    Melky cabrera.
    Lifetime .200's batter, starts juicing, average jumps by hundreds of points and he makes all start games(wins MVP) and is theoretically the 2012 nl batting champion.

    Also specifically back to lance, he was in a sport where EVERYBODY cheated, not exactly literally, but more so literally than figuratively.
    I read a stat once that some tour de France race would have had to have the title go to the guy that finished 22nd overall if all the people who had used PEDS we're DQ'd

    Also this
    No, Lance, say it isn't so!-imageuploadedbytapatalk1358621110.612241.jpg
  14. #89  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    And yea, more devil's advocate than anything. Just food for thought.
  15. #90  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    It is an interesting point...
    I think tosh made a joke a out it one time...
    If these people are going to be world class athletes and the best if the best at what they do, then enhance away!!!!
    If everyone does PED's then it becomes an equal playing field. And theoretically better faster stronger version if what we already love!
  16. #91  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    I don't really care about the sports doping except that a lot of athletes do them without knowledge of both short and long term side effects. They just think of the good things such as being faster or stronger. If they were legal and there was a lot more public knowledge and information and education about the good and the bad, then I think adults should be able to make their own decision.

    I also feel that way about all other drugs. Legalize them all. But educate people and especially kids about the good and the bad. I was a child and teen in the '80's and I think the "Just Say No" campaign did more harm than good. Because it was absolutist-all drugs are bad (although alcohol and nicotine were somehow not classified as drugs). But there's a big difference in "badness" between pot and heroin. And a lot of kids tried pot, discovered that it wasn't so bad and that the government had lied, and then went on to other drugs because they figured that the government just have been lying too.

    But even though I think something like heroin is a "bad" drug, I don't think it should be illegal. Illegal drugs do the most harm from the addict always having to chase down their next fix. A lot of addicts (at least early in their addiction) could hold down a productive job and contribute to society if they weren't always chasing that fix and doing other illegal things to get the money to pay for it. (Obviously jobs with safety concerns are not included). Many alcoholics are a case in point. One of my grandfathers is a good example-never missed a day of work but spent every evening and the weekends drunk.

    People should be educated honestly about all drugs including alcohol, nicotine and even caffeine. And then allowed to make their own choices. Access for children should be regulated as it is for alcohol and nicotine. Hopefully it would help people make better decisions-I cringe every time I see someone give a baby bottle of Coke to their infant.

    It's not the total answer. But the money saved from law enforcement and the tax money from the sale of legal drugs could be used for education purposes and treatment for addicts who wanted it.
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  17. #92  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karenkcoulter View Post
    I don't really care about the sports doping except that a lot of athletes do them without knowledge of both short and long term side effects. They just think of the good things such as being faster or stronger. If they were legal and there was a lot more public knowledge and information and education about the good and the bad, then I think adults should be able to make their own decision.

    I also feel that way about all other drugs. Legalize them all. But educate people and especially kids about the good and the bad. I was a child and teen in the '80's and I think the "Just Say No" campaign did more harm than good. Because it was absolutist-all drugs are bad (although alcohol and nicotine were somehow not classified as drugs). But there's a big difference in "badness" between pot and heroin. And a lot of kids tried pot, discovered that it wasn't so bad and that the government had lied, and then went on to other drugs because they figured that the government just have been lying too.

    But even though I think something like heroin is a "bad" drug, I don't think it should be illegal. Illegal drugs do the most harm from the addict always having to chase down their next fix. A lot of addicts (at least early in their addiction) could hold down a productive job and contribute to society if they weren't always chasing that fix and doing other illegal things to get the money to pay for it. (Obviously jobs with safety concerns are not included). Many alcoholics are a case in point. One of my grandfathers is a good example-never missed a day of work but spent every evening and the weekends drunk.

    People should be educated honestly about all drugs including alcohol, nicotine and even caffeine. And then allowed to make their own choices. Access for children should be regulated as it is for alcohol and nicotine. Hopefully it would help people make better decisions-I cringe every time I see someone give a baby bottle of Coke to their infant.

    It's not the total answer. But the money saved from law enforcement and the tax money from the sale of legal drugs could be used for education purposes and treatment for addicts who wanted it.
    I agree to a point, but this is the Olympics, and these athletes are representing their country and fellow citizens in a positive manner. Their hard work and effort should be wholly honest and non-drug enhanced, in my opinion. Some things need to remain pure.
  18. #93  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    I agree to a point, but this is the Olympics, and these athletes are representing their country and fellow citizens in a positive manner. Their hard work and effort should be wholly honest and non-drug enhanced, in my opinion. Some things need to remain pure.
    In the case of the Olympics, I would still prefer it to be legal but for it to be public which athletes used and did not. Therefore perhaps shame would prevent athletes from using performance enhancing drugs because the public would believe that they didn't really deserve their medals or other achievements. But that may just be wishful thinking on my part.
  19. #94  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karenkcoulter View Post
    In the case of the Olympics, I would still prefer it to be legal but for it to be public which athletes used and did not. Therefore perhaps shame would prevent athletes from using performance enhancing drugs because the public would believe that they didn't really deserve their medals or other achievements. But that may just be wishful thinking on my part.
    Shaming may work for some, but if the use of performance enhancement drugs become legal then the athletes that opt not to use them would probably be condemned for not trying hard enough. Still, I understand what you're saying, my friend...
    Last edited by JustMe'D; 01-19-2013 at 10:59 PM.
  20. #95  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Interesting conversation.
  21. #96  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post
    Interesting conversation.
    Indeed. ...
  22. #97  
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    Default No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Just to make sure that I'm clear here, I hate PED's and am glad that professional sports leagues ban the use...
  23. #98  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Lance Armstrong unjustly enriched

    In summary:
    The Postal Service paid about $40 million to be the title sponsor of Armstrongs teams for six of his seven Tour de France victories.

    Defendants were unjustly enriched to the extent of the payments and other benefits they received from the USPS, either directly or indirectly, the complaint said.

    Armstrong attorney Elliot Peters called the governments complaint opportunistic, and insincere.

    The U.S. Postal Service benefited tremendously from its sponsorship of the cycling team. Its own studies repeatedly and conclusively prove this. The USPS was never the victim of fraud. Lance Armstrong rode his heart out for the USPS team, and gave the brand tremendous exposure during the sponsorship years, Peters said.

    'Based on what I read from the article', I agree that the government is being opportunistic & insincere. Having said that, I am NOT excusing Armstrong for his cheating.
  24. #99  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    Lance Armstrong unjustly enriched

    In summary:
    The Postal Service paid about $40 million to be the title sponsor of Armstrongs teams for six of his seven Tour de France victories.

    Defendants were unjustly enriched to the extent of the payments and other benefits they received from the USPS, either directly or indirectly, the complaint said.

    Armstrong attorney Elliot Peters called the governments complaint opportunistic, and insincere.

    The U.S. Postal Service benefited tremendously from its sponsorship of the cycling team. Its own studies repeatedly and conclusively prove this. The USPS was never the victim of fraud. Lance Armstrong rode his heart out for the USPS team, and gave the brand tremendous exposure during the sponsorship years, Peters said.

    'Based on what I read from the article', I agree that the government is being opportunistic & insincere. Having said that, I am NOT excusing Armstrong for his cheating.
    It was only a matter of time before one of his sponsors sued him for some $$ back
  25. #100  
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    Default Re: No, Lance, say it isn't so!

    Quote Originally Posted by rdiddy_25 View Post
    It was only a matter of time before one of his sponsors sued him for some $$ back
    You're right about that, my friend.
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