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  1. Thread AuthorThread Author   #1  
    Blackfeet's Avatar
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    Default Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Good Day to All,

    My Dept. has contracted with a company called Meraki to manage their IT mobile devices, via (I believe) the cloud. Reportedly, as in rumor on the street, is that it will be able to detect jailbroken devices (which is against policy - DOH!) and report it to ITS. I have been unable to verify this, but if it is true, my Jailbreak will have to go away, and I will have to upgrade to 6.1.3 (DANG!!!!).

    My question to the JB community, is this true - does anybody have any experience with this Company? PLEASE say it ain't so!
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Never heard of that company personally but I do know that if ur companies uses exchange for its iPhone, then yea they can detect if its JB and require u to update to remove it. Not really anything u can do about it since they pay for and own the device. Sorry.
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    If they are on a managed server then they will see it and force an upgrade. Sorry! I would 100% advise against jailbreaking or modifying company owned devices. At some places that can get you fired, fined, or even arrested and jailed.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfeet View Post
    it will be able to detect jailbroken devices (which is against policy - DOH!) and report it to ITS.
    check this out:

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    natasftw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    If they are on a managed server then they will see it and force an upgrade. Sorry! I would 100% advise against jailbreaking or modifying company owned devices. At some places that can get you fired, fined, or even arrested and jailed.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
    It's not criminal. Worst case, it's a violation of a contract with the company. You can't be jailed for civil cases.

    What crazy stories are you hearing?
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    It's not criminal. Worst case, it's a violation of a contract with the company. You can't be jailed for civil cases.

    What crazy stories are you hearing?
    Depends on the company and sector of work. I know many government contracting companies that press criminal charges for tampering with equipment. It all depends on the company's rules and laws concerning that company b


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I know many government contracting companies that press criminal charges for tampering with equipment.
    I could see this if the company was a military contractor or something similar where employees were required to have a security clearance. Then arguably, the jailbreaking could be seen as circumventing security protocols.

    Otherwise, I don't know what laws could be broken. There have to be laws in place that make it a crime since it is not up to the company to prosecute; that is up to the district or state's attorney or in federal court, the federal prosecutors.

    First though, there has to be a law that is broken. Specifically, what laws would be broken?
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    It's not criminal. Worst case, it's a violation of a contract with the company. You can't be jailed for civil cases.
    I agree with this in general, but if the phone were issued to an employee with a security clearance by a military contractor or the like and used for business calls/emails about military projects (or the like), I could see there being security clearance laws that were broken.

    Other than that, I agree.
  9. #9  
    jclisenby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by androidluvr2 View Post
    I could see this if the company was a military contractor or something similar where employees were required to have a security clearance. Then arguably, the jailbreaking could be seen as circumventing security protocols.

    Otherwise, I don't know what laws could be broken. There have to be laws in place that make it a crime since it is not up to the company to prosecute; that is up to the district or state's attorney or in federal court, the federal prosecutors.

    First though, there has to be a law that is broken. Specifically, what laws would be broken?
    The laws I have seen involve tampering with company equipment, circumventing security protocols, illegally accessing data, hacking, and piracy. I've also seen some places where jailbreaking or modifying company devices is considered vandalism or destruction of property.

    I'm sure most companies just fire people who do it, but there's always a chance worse things can happen.


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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    The laws I have seen involve tampering with company equipment, circumventing security protocols, illegally accessing data, hacking, and piracy. I've also seen some places where jailbreaking or modifying company devices is considered vandalism or destruction of property.
    What laws in what jurisdiction? Specifically. I am not asking for broad legal concepts, rather, I am asking for the statutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I'm sure most companies just fire people who do it, but there's always a chance worse things can happen.
    There's not the chance if there is no law that makes it a crime. But fired, sure, that is what the OP needs to worry about.
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by androidluvr2 View Post
    What laws in what jurisdiction? Specifically. I am not asking for broad legal concepts, rather, I am asking for the statutes.

    There's not the chance if there is no law that makes it a crime. But fired, sure, that is what the OP needs to worry about.
    Yes, in most cases the harshest punishment brought down will be getting fired. I do know many companies who can press charges if this happens. There are many laws on the federal, state, and local level protecting company assets and data. Many jurisdictions allow companies to consider jailbreaking a form of either breaking & entering, vandalism, or burglary. It all depends on where and what company. The majority of companies I know that do this are government contractors.


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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    There are many laws on the federal, state, and local level protecting company assets and data.
    Yes, there are, but that is not the issue. The issue is do any of them make it a crime to gain root access to a company issued phone (aka jailbreaking). I haven't seen any statutes that do.
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    Many jurisdictions allow companies to consider jailbreaking a form of either breaking & entering, vandalism, or burglary.
    Which jurisdictions and what are the specific statutes that apply?
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by androidluvr2 View Post
    Yes, there are, but that is not the issue. The issue is do any of them make it a crime to gain root access to a company issued phone (aka jailbreaking). I haven't seen any statutes that do.
    I personally know of some company policies that equate jailbreaking with these and people have been fired and arrested for attempting to jailbreak or circumvent security protocols. Keep in mind that my experience is with contracting companies with government ties. They have the federal data laws on their side.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
  15. Thread AuthorThread Author   #15  
    Blackfeet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Well, while I have no fear of getting arrested, and very little fear of being fired, I could be/would be in some kind of trouble if our ITS Manager were to find out, so I guess it is bye-bye evasi0n.

    Perhaps it is time for me to get my own device and hand the Dept.'s back.
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I personally know of some company policies that equate jailbreaking with these
    It doesn't matter whether or not the company considers jailbreaking a crime. What matters is whether there is a law that makes it a crime. So far, you haven't cited to any such law. All you are doing is throwing out broad legal concepts like breaking and entering, which is a legal concept that applies to a dwelling/building or other enclosed structure and requires intent to commit a crime upon entering. It's also called burglary and it's irrelevant to gaining root access to a company-issued phone.


    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    and people have been fired and arrested for attempting to jailbreak or circumvent security protocols.
    If they have been arrested, it is a matter of public record. What are their names? I would like to look up their case.
  17. #17  
    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackfeet View Post
    Perhaps it is time for me to get my own device and hand the Dept.'s back.
    yeah, that sounds like a plan.
  18. #18  
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by androidluvr2 View Post
    It doesn't matter whether or not the company considers jailbreaking a crime. What matters is whether there is a law that makes it a crime. So far, you haven't cited to any such law. All you are doing is throwing out broad legal concepts like breaking and entering, which is a legal concept that applies to a dwelling/building or other enclosed structure and requires intent to commit a crime upon entering. It's irrelevant to jailbreaking.


    If they have been arrested, it is a matter of public record. What are their names? I would like to look up their case.
    I don't know the actual laws, man. If its that important to you I can look them up. Just know its a bad idea.

    Keep in mind that when you gain employment with a company, you are given the rules and regulations with that company. Whatever is in those rules, once signed by you, holds up 100% in court. That's where it's usually cited that you can be prosecuted for these crimes if modifications are made to company devices. The laws concern both the physical devices, the company data, and intellectual property contained on them.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I don't know the actual laws, man. If its that important to you I can look them up.
    Please look them up and let me know what they are. That is what I have been asking - what are the laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    Keep in mind that when you gain employment with a company, you are given the rules and regulations with that company. Whatever is in those rules, once signed by you, holds up 100% in court.
    First, let's be clear, that would be in a civil court, as that would be a civil matter. But even then, the terms can be deemed unenforceable by a court. An example are non-compete clauses in California. An employer can have an employee sign one of those, but no California court will enforce it. Even if the non-compete clause was signed outside of California between a non-California employer and a non-California employee and was legal under their state's law. If that employee takes a job in California that violates the non-compete clause they signed before they moved to California, no California court will enforce it. Period. And no courts in any other state have any jurisdiction to enforce it once the former employee moves to California and accepts employment with a California employer.

    There are other examples I can think of off the top of my head. That is just one. Another would be non-disclosure agreements. A company can draft an overly broad NDA, have the employee sign it and a court can refuse to enforce it.

    Moreover, a company can't enact a criminal statute and if there is no criminal statute making an act a crime, then it is not a crime no matter what a company's rules and regulations say.


    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    That's where it's usually cited that you can be prosecuted for these crimes if modifications are made to company devices.
    A company can put whatever they want in their company manual. It doesn't mean that any laws exist that actually make breaching the terms of that employment contract a crime. And it doesn't mean that what they put in their company manual will be enforced even by a civil court.
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by androidluvr2 View Post
    Please look them up and let me know what they are. That is what I have been asking - what are the laws.

    First, let's be clear, that would be in a civil court, as that would be a civil matter. But even then, the terms can be deemed unenforceable by a court. An example are non-compete clauses in California. An employer can have an employee sign one of those, but no California court will enforce it. Even if the non-compete clause was signed outside of California between a non-California employer and a non-California employee and was legal under their state's law. If that employee takes a job in California that violates the non-compete clause they signed before they moved to California, no California court will enforce it. Period. And no courts in any other state have any jurisdiction to enforce it once the former employee moves to California and accepts employment with a California employer.

    There are other examples I can think of off the top of my head. That is just one. Another would be non-disclosure agreements. A company can draft an overly broad NDA, have the employee sign it and a court can refuse to enforce it.

    Moreover, a company can't enact a criminal statute and if there is no criminal statute making an act a crime, then it is not a crime no matter what a company's rules and regulations say.


    A company can put whatever they want in their company manual. It doesn't mean that any laws exist that actually make breaching the terms of that employment contract a crime. And it doesn't mean that what they put in their company manual will be enforced even by a civil court.
    For companies that are contracted by the government, all data, computers, and even smartphones are covered under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. It's a federal law making it a criminal offense to do pretty much anything unauthorized to a government computing device. It has been strengthened in recent years by the Patriot Act and revisions to include smartphones and tablets in the law's reach.

    I'm not sure how private companies would go about it, but there it is for any government contracted company.


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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. It's a federal law making it a criminal offense to do pretty much anything unauthorized to a government computing device.
    Thanks. That is 18 USC 1030.



    Section (a)(5)(A) might apply to jailbreaking since the statute defines damage quite broadly at least to the extent it is done on a protected computer:

    (a)(5)(A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;

    (e)(8) the term damage means any impairment to the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or information;

    (e)(2) the term protected computer means a computer
    (A) exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution or the United States Government and the conduct constituting the offense affects that use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
    (B) which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States.
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I don't know the actual laws, man. If its that important to you I can look them up. Just know its a bad idea.

    Keep in mind that when you gain employment with a company, you are given the rules and regulations with that company. Whatever is in those rules, once signed by you, holds up 100% in court. That's where it's usually cited that you can be prosecuted for these crimes if modifications are made to company devices. The laws concern both the physical devices, the company data, and intellectual property contained on them.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
    You're a terrible lawyer.

    What's held in those contracts are civil matters. Violating those contracts is held up by civil court. Civil court CANNOT jail anyone.

    The jailbreak doesn't touch the company's intellectual data in any way that the default iOS does. Jailbreaking limits restrictions that allow apps to run that may, or may not, run otherwise. But, it's still the same type of touching.

    The jailbreak doesn't provide any additional access to company information, nor does it "hack" the company.

    The laws are entirely breach of contract. That's not criminal.

    You don't know what they are because they simply do not exist. Even in terms of security clearances, they don't exist. Anyone that thinks so has never had a security clearance. If there was anything placed on a jailbroken phone that violated a security clearance, it violated the clearance in general. Then, the law you're worried about is not jailbreaking, it's likely treason.
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    Default Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    You're a terrible lawyer.

    What's held in those contracts are civil matters. Violating those contracts is held up by civil court. Civil court CANNOT jail anyone.

    The jailbreak doesn't touch the company's intellectual data in any way that the default iOS does. Jailbreaking limits restrictions that allow apps to run that may, or may not, run otherwise. But, it's still the same type of touching.

    The jailbreak doesn't provide any additional access to company information, nor does it "hack" the company.

    The laws are entirely breach of contract. That's not criminal.

    You don't know what they are because they simply do not exist. Even in terms of security clearances, they don't exist. Anyone that thinks so has never had a security clearance. If there was anything placed on a jailbroken phone that violated a security clearance, it violated the clearance in general. Then, the law you're worried about is not jailbreaking, it's likely treason.
    I'm not a lawyer. Just going off of personal experiences with various companies and the laws and polices in place there.


    Tappin and Talkin from my iPhone 5
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    What's held in those contracts are civil matters. Violating those contracts is held up by civil court. Civil court CANNOT jail anyone.
    No but federal prosecutors can.

    He actually posted a law - 18 USC 1030. Did you read the statute? I did, let me walk you through 18 USC 1030(a)(5)(A):

    Quote Originally Posted by 18 USC 1030(a)(5)(A)
    (a) Whoever—
    . . .
    (5)(A) knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer;

    Now here is the definition section:

    Quote Originally Posted by 18 USC 1030(e)
    (e) As used in this section—
    (1) the term “computer” means an electronic, magnetic, optical, electrochemical, or other high speed data processing device performing logical, arithmetic, or storage functions, and includes any data storage facility or communications facility directly related to or operating in conjunction with such device, but such term does not include an automated typewriter or typesetter, a portable hand held calculator, or other similar device;
    (2) the term “protected computer” means a computer—
    (A) exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or, in the case of a computer not exclusively for such use, used by or for a financial institution or the United States Government and the conduct constituting the offense affects that use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
    (B) which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States;
    . . .
    (8) the term “damage” means any impairment to the integrity or availability of data, a program, a system, or information;

    Now here is the relevant criminal penalty section:

    Quote Originally Posted by 18 USC 1030(c)
    (c) The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) or (b) of this section is—
    . . .
    (4)
    . . .
    (G) a fine under this title, imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, for—
    (i) any other offense under subsection (a)(5); or
    (ii) an attempt to commit an offense punishable under this subparagraph.


    I agree, that law is too broad in how it defines "damage" and "protected computer."

    Here is an article to read on how this law has been misused in another context. Write your congressperson if you disagree with the law.

    Last edited by androidluvr2; 04-23-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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    androidluvr2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Uh-oh... Trouble on the horizon?

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    Civil court CANNOT jail anyone.
    I would just like to clarify this a bit. Civil court judges can in fact jail you for contempt of court if you refuse to comply with their orders.

    So if you are involved in a civil matter and a judge orders you to do something in that civil matter, you need to do it, or you risk jail time. It is not considered a misdemeanor or a felony offense that would go on your record, but it can include jail time until you comply with the judge's order.
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