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  1. #26  
    Timhewitt's Avatar
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by BLiNK View Post
    Tim has spoken. Thread closed.
    Hardly.

    No one really cares what we as developers face to try to make a living writing software. I do attempt to share some of the issues from my perspective, but I don't really expect anyone to understand.
  2. Thread AuthorThread Author   #27  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    Rather than complain about all developers and all apps and all popups, why not take your specific issue to the app you have a problem with.

    Since you clearly don't feel a need to review an app, and we the developers have actual proof that reviews drive sales, we will clearly never agree.

    I do find it fascinating that being asked to review an app is so utterly distasteful to you, and that you believe that as a customer it matters not if your developer makes a profit or goes out of business.
    I have reviewed and recommended more apps than I care to recall and I did so willingly and on my own terms. Some of those reviews / recommendations can be read right here in these forums. The last being the Tapatalk 2 app. Having said that, you are not going to tell me that I cannot be dissatisfied with pop-ups prompting me to rate an app. I don't decide to buy a note taking app for the purpose of paying your bills. I buy it based on my needs at that time. If saying that upsets you, I'm sorry, but it's the truth and I say that respectfully. Do I understand the devs point of view as stated in this thread? Of course, I do and I know you understand my point of view. It's obviously more personal for you being that you're a developer and apparently make your living off of the sale of apps and I get that. I really do. I DO NOT like repeated prompts nagging me to rate an app, especially after having already rated the app. If your kids repeatedly asked, "are we there yet?" during an 8-hour drive and you've only been on the road for 5 minutes, I'm sure you'd find it quite irritating. Now to review and summarize: I buy apps. I'm grateful to devs who make apps that I need. I don't mind recommending apps on my own terms. I understand the reason for the ratings request. I don't like repeated requests to rate. Oh, and I do NOT find it "distasteful" to "review" an app but I do find it "distasteful" to be nagged to death. I can't get any clearer than that.
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  3. Thread AuthorThread Author   #28  
    JustMe'D's Avatar

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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    Hardly.

    No one really cares what we as developers face to try to make a living writing software. I do attempt to share some of the issues from my perspective, but I don't really expect anyone to understand.
    Tim, I do indeed understand and I do appreciate your perspective but just because I do, it doesn't mean I have to like it. I like the fact that you create & develop apps. I like the fact that you sell apps and I like the fact that I can buy them from you. I don't like the annoying rating requests. I stated only one negative.
  4. #29  
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    Default Please stop!

    My perspective…being prompted to rate an app is a form of marketing. It is slightly annoying but no more so than any other form of marketing. Many apps do respect your choice not to be asked again, with the caveat that you may be asked again when a new version comes out. Those that so not respect your choice not to be asked again are more annoying.

    What I don't understand is the complaints above that you are supporting the dev by purchasing the app and should not have to view any other marketing messages about it. To me, that is kind of like "I own a Samsung TV so I should never see a commercial about Samsung TVs (or a web ad, etc)". Of course I can, and do, do things to avoid some advertising by using TiVo, as blockers on the web, etc. but those things take much more time and effort than clicking "not now" or "do not ask me again" when asked to rate an app.

    Advertising and marketing are part of the price we pay for our current economy and lifestyle. It's annoying, yes. But I find it hard to single out the "rate my app" marketing ploy as being any worse than any others. Yes, turning that form marketing off is under a devs control and individualizing commercials on TV may not be under the control of the product manufacturer (although I bet it could be done by the networks), so maybe that's why you find the "rate my app" marketing to be so annoying.
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  5. #30  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    I think the difference to me is that we've become used to buying software in part to stop popups and ads—once a license was bought, that was usually the end of it. One expects a "Lite" version to include ads and popups, but in the desktop world those are used more as a way to get you to buy the full version—which would not have those annoyances.

    Whether or not App Store price points can support that business model is a different question—but I believe that's where the frustration stems from.
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  6. Thread AuthorThread Author   #31  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Massie View Post
    I think the difference to me is that we've become used to buying software in part to stop popups and ads—once a license was bought, that was usually the end of it. One expects a "Lite" version to include ads and popups, but in the desktop world those are used more as a way to get you to buy the full version—which would not have those annoyances.

    Whether or not App Store price points can support that business model is a different question—but I believe that's where the frustration stems from.
    You are spot-on, Massie ...
  7. #32  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    While a review may encourage/discourage the purchase of an app after a customer becomes aware that they want/need said app, it is not what drives a customer's need for an app. I believe the issue lies with the fact that while these reviews help the volume of a developer's sales and margins, it is not the customer's responsibility to help those numbers; that responsibility lies solely with the developer. If a developer chooses to pursue a living in creating and distributing apps, they need to also put energy into marketing that app, without 'pestering' (may or may not be how I feel) via other methods. I understand that the reviews may be a cost effective way to give validity to the usefulness of an app, but it need not be so important that you change the way an existing customer feels about your product.

    The analogy about the Samsung TV earlier is a bit off. From the description the OP gave, it would be equivalent to each time you turn that Samsung TV on receiving a message to assist Samsung with their sales numbers.

    I understand the premise of how important these reviews may be to stimulating or helping sales. But the OP is correct in saying that once the customer purchases the app, there is nothing else required from the customer or any implied responsibility to do anything further. Even if the user buys the app and never opens it, that is their right. If they never speak of the app to anyone else or never review, they don't have to. No developer should make a customer feel as if they are wrong for not doing so.

    How you plan to market the app is something you should consider before ever even beginning the production phase. If your app can not survive without a single review, there are deeper marketing problems than the customer can fix. I believe the reviews were meant to help the customer, not the developer. It is based around community and wanting to help/protect other user's like you. Any decision I make to purchase a product is not based solely on these reviews (not speaking for everyone). My decision is based on my faith that a company will provide said service. And your OWN marketing is what helps build that faith, not an existing customer.
    Thanked by:
    Fausty82 (01-30-2013), JustMe'D (01-30-2013)
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  8. #33  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    If an app makes it to the front of iTunes, it has to have a TON of positive reviews. No amount of marketing will do that. Devs have no way to reach out to those people who purchase the app - Apple gives us total numbers. Not names or email addresses. Shame.

    Keeping a lite version requires the same coding hours as making the full version. For big apps its not worth it.
  9. #34  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alli View Post


    Blackberry, iOS, Android, Windows, and Mac.
    Nice app, good work!
    iPhone5 32gb, iPad2 64gb wifi, Apple TV3, MacBook Air
    Team JailBreak
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    Alli (01-31-2013)
  10. #35  
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    O I completely understand how important it is to make it to the front lines of the app store. But with the way apple seems to 'prioritize' which apps get there, this should not be the main focus of the 'marketing' attempts. Most of the apps I have actually purchased, do not even show in the app store unless I search for them specifically (after hearing about them from other sources, than the app store itself). Marketing need not have a singular focus. There are many ways to market an app these days; blogs, email marketing, social media, etc. Relying on customers to review the app should not be the main focus. Especially these days when a customer that is happy is normally the quietest customer. Most customers that enjoy an app/service never 'give back' in the way of reviews. They may visit a forum (such as imore) or tell other like minded individuals about it. But my point is there is no obligation for them to do any of these and there should not be an expectation built into marketing efforts. It is definitely nice to see those reviews, but it is never a given.

    While tedious and some times difficult, app distribution is no different from any other business. It requires just as much effort to build a buzz as it does to create. Once you have a customer, your focus should be on providing that customer with a great experience; not receiving a rave review. The review will come from that experience (if the customer feels so inclined). The advertising other companies outside of app distribution engage in, is not primarily for existing customers, but to raise awareness to new potential customers. Maybe reach out to tech blogs (imore plug) or other sites related to your product and engage in an interview or article. The sites benefit from providing their audience with valuable and pertinent information about something they believe will be useful. And the developer is starting the snowball down the hill. There are plenty of ways to build that buzz. Of the over 200 apps I have installed, most are from me seeking out these specifics companies/person's apps (other than cheap games). In these cases, what good would reviews do, if I never knew to look for them?
    Thanked by:
    JustMe'D (01-30-2013)
    Fausty82 and JustMe'D like this.
  11. #36  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by WreakingHavoc View Post
    Nice app, good work!

    This is better than any review, as I actually clicked to see what WreakingHavoc thought was a good app. One that I would have never found by looking at App Store suggestions -- number 99 under Productivity -> Paid (Top Charts). Not normally one to scroll through that many different apps.

    Side note -- I will be looking on the internet to see if it is something I think I could use From the website (quick glance) it does look to be well worth the 9.99 price tag!
  12. Thread AuthorThread Author   #37  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by dowdyrich View Post
    ...(snipped)...There are many ways to market an app these days; blogs, email marketing, social media, etc. Relying on customers to review the app should not be the main focus. Especially these days when a customer that is happy is normally the quietest customer. Most customers that enjoy an app/service never 'give back' in the way of reviews. They may visit a forum (such as imore) or tell other like minded individuals about it. But my point is there is no obligation for them to do any of these and there should not be an expectation built into marketing efforts....(snipped)...
    Thank you so very much. YOU get it! ...(snipped)...
    Once you have a customer, your focus should be on providing that customer with a great experience; not receiving a rave review. The review will come from that experience (if the customer feels so inclined). ....(snipped)...
    'Nuf said...
  13. #38  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Massie View Post
    I think the difference to me is that we've become used to buying software in part to stop popups and ads—once a license was bought, that was usually the end of it. One expects a "Lite" version to include ads and popups, but in the desktop world those are used more as a way to get you to buy the full version—which would not have those annoyances.

    Whether or not App Store price points can support that business model is a different question—but I believe that's where the frustration stems from.
    Yes, I'm sure that's why people are annoyed with ads in paid apps. Because that's what we are used to.

    But just because its always been that way with software, doesn't mean it always should be. I can think of many things where I pay, but still get subjected to marketing and advertising. Such as 1) I pay my cable bill and still see ads in TV, 2) Hulu+, 3) riding the subway, 4) going to a sporting event.

    In some cases maybe I pay and see ads due to greed and in others it is because the cost I pay doesn't fully cover the cost of the item (whether media, event, etc). Probably some of both in some cases. So if we wanted to see absolutely no ads, then it becomes a question if whether we would accept the necessary price increases for those things. In most cases, the businesses have probably already done the calculus necessary to determine that they couldn't afford the loss of customers that a price increase would cause. And in some cases, you could also argue the morality of raising prices to exclude ads because that would inevitably prevent some people from using the service who could no longer afford the price (like riding the subway).

    TLDR: just because we are accustomed to something, doesn't mean it should stay that way.

    PS: I'm as annoyed by advertising as anyone.
  14. #39  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karenkcoulter View Post
    Yes, I'm sure that's why people are annoyed with ads in paid apps. Because that's what we are used to.

    But just because its always been that way with software, doesn't mean it always should be. I can think of many things where I pay, but still get subjected to marketing and advertising. Such as 1) I pay my cable bill and still see ads in TV, 2) Hulu+, 3) riding the subway, 4) going to a sporting event.

    In some cases maybe I pay and see ads due to greed and in others it is because the cost I pay doesn't fully cover the cost of the item (whether media, event, etc). Probably some of both in some cases. So if we wanted to see absolutely no ads, then it becomes a question if whether we would accept the necessary price increases for those things. In most cases, the businesses have probably already done the calculus necessary to determine that they couldn't afford the loss of customers that a price increase would cause. And in some cases, you could also argue the morality of raising prices to exclude ads because that would inevitably prevent some people from using the service who could no longer afford the price (like riding the subway).

    TLDR: just because we are accustomed to something, doesn't mean it should stay that way.

    PS: I'm as annoyed by advertising as anyone.
    Hi Karen...like I said in my post, my explanation is simply trying to explain WHY people look at this situation differently. It may well be that this will be the new normal when it comes to apps, but I think we're all still finding our legs in the marketplace. (I can't tell if you agree or think I'm an *****.) Ironically, I think the best thing people can do to voice their displeasure is to...leave a review, saying that they don't enjoy having their workflow interrupted by popups asking for reviews.

    But let me be clear: my ONLY issue is with those apps that don't respect (or don't offer) a "Don't Ask Again" choice. At some point, it becomes like a telemarketing robocall that rings your phone over and over, or that drunk guy in the bar that doesn't want to take no for an answer.
  15. #40  
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    Default Please stop!

    Clearly many of us have a problem with apps that pester the user, and I am no exception to that.

    My apps put up a review request once. You can press the Review, Later, Never buttons and we will respect your choice. We also have a Review Us button in our about page which is virtually never used ( tracked with analytics) in any of our apps.

    When we rev the product and the reviews get reset, we don't ask again. We rely on new customers to create a new review pool. Ironically when we rev an app sales typically drop for the next month, just when we have put out new features and improved the product.

    Reviews are NOT our sole advertising method. In fact we don't really consider it part of our ad campaign, it is instead a simple fact that apps without reviews don't get purchased in anywhere the same volumes as apps with reviews. Not a speculation, a simple fact.

    Marketing is significantly more effort than development and we put that effort in, which does work for us, however the fact remains that without reviews in the App Store, sales suffer and our ability to upgrade your favorite app is reduced.

    I have already shared some successful marketing tips in other threads so I won't go there in this one, but suffice it to say that reviews have a place, are valuable not just for ranking, and we will continue to ask for them - once - as long as buyers continue to require them before making a purchase.

    You can decide if that review is worth getting your enhancement request completed or not as you wish.

    I again suggest that if you have a problem with a specific developer putting up popups all the time requesting reviews that you let them know. Don't paint all of us with a broad brush ifvwevask you nice to take just a minute to help us survive so we can make your app better in the future.

    By the way, there is no way to actually tell if you have reviewed our app, only if you have pressed the review button... If you reviewed it thru iTunes directly we don't know either...
    Thanked by:
    Alli (01-31-2013)
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  16. #41  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    Tim what are some of your apps?

    (Sorry for OT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    Clearly many of us have a problem with apps that pester the user, and I am no exception to that.

    My apps put up a review request once. You can press the Review, Later, Never buttons and we will respect your choice. We also have a Review Us button in our about page which is virtually never used ( tracked with analytics) in any of our apps.

    When we rev the product and the reviews get reset, we don't ask again. We rely on new customers to create a new review pool. Ironically when we rev an app sales typically drop for the next month, just when we have put out new features and improved the product.

    Reviews are NOT our sole advertising method. In fact we don't really consider it part of our ad campaign, it is instead a simple fact that apps without reviews don't get purchased in anywhere the same volumes as apps with reviews. Not a speculation, a simple fact.

    Marketing is significantly more effort than development and we put that effort in, which does work for us, however the fact remains that without reviews in the App Store, sales suffer and our ability to upgrade your favorite app is reduced.

    I have already shared some successful marketing tips in other threads so I won't go there in this one, but suffice it to say that reviews have a place, are valuable not just for ranking, and we will continue to ask for them - once - as long as buyers continue to require them before making a purchase.

    You can decide if that review is worth getting your enhancement request completed or not as you wish.

    I again suggest that if you have a problem with a specific developer putting up popups all the time requesting reviews that you let them know. Don't paint all of us with a broad brush ifvwevask you nice to take just a minute to help us survive so we can make your app better in the future.

    By the way, there is no way to actually tell if you have reviewed our app, only if you have pressed the review button... If you reviewed it thru iTunes directly we don't know either...
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  17. #42  
    Timhewitt's Avatar
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by john_v View Post
    Tim what are some of your apps?

    (Sorry for OT)
    I'm sorry. Company policy does not allow for employees to identify our apps outside of the official company accounts doing announcements and promotions.
  18. #43  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    I'm sorry. Company policy does not allow for employees to identify our apps outside of the official company accounts doing announcements and promotions.
    Lol ok no prob
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  19. Thread AuthorThread Author   #44  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    I'm sorry. Company policy does not allow for employees to identify our apps outside of the official company accounts doing announcements and promotions.
    Are you saying that you are not allowed to name any apps made by your company?
  20. #45  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    Are you saying that you are not allowed to name any apps made by your company?
    My guess is that
    1. Naming the apps will open him up to support requests outside the "support structure" meaning that he will get PM'd to death with "my app doesn't work right" people.

    2. There might be legal repercussions if he let slip any details of the apps he has a hand in.

    3. And if you ever have worked in retail you know once the customers know where you work they will never leave you alone. (I worked for a popular supermarket chain for 20 years. Customers would come to me with problems they had when I was out of work shopping in other stores. They never left me alone. )
  21. #46  
    Timhewitt's Avatar
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    Are you saying that you are not allowed to name any apps made by your company?
    That is correct. None of us are allowed to identify the company or the apps we create. Past issues have resulted in this policy and only official company forum accounts may identify apps or provide support. We do have a presence on most forums, though it's only one small part of our marketing strategy. Paid, targeted ads are our highest return.

    It's ok. I'm not posting to prop up our apps, I'm here to simply provide general help to the iOS community from a different perspective.
  22. Thread AuthorThread Author   #47  
    JustMe'D's Avatar

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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodville View Post
    My guess is that
    1. Naming the apps will open him up to support requests outside the "support structure" meaning that he will get PM'd to death with "my app doesn't work right" people.
    Maybe, but he could easily direct inquiries to the proper company channels. I don't see a problem with identifying apps. Heck, how are customers suppose to be able to help devs or their companies if we don't even know what products they sell?

    2. There might be legal repercussions if he let slip any details of the apps he has a hand in.
    I'm sure the OP was seeking information about his/company's apps that are already in the App Store.

    3. And if you ever have worked in retail you know once the customers know where you work they will never leave you alone. (I worked for a popular supermarket chain for 20 years. Customers would come to me with problems they had when I was out of work shopping in other stores. They never left me alone. )
    That may or may not apply in this regard. Anyway, I understand what you're saying though. Thanks.
  23. Thread AuthorThread Author   #48  
    JustMe'D's Avatar

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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    That is correct. None of us are allowed to identify the company or the apps we create. Past issues have resulted in this policy and only official company forum accounts may identify apps or provide support. We do have a presence on most forums, though it's only one small part of our marketing strategy. Paid, targeted ads are our highest return.

    It's ok. I'm not posting to prop up our apps, I'm here to simply provide general help to the iOS community from a different perspective.
    Thank you, Tim...
  24. #49  
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    Default Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Massie View Post
    Hi Karen...like I said in my post, my explanation is simply trying to explain WHY people look at this situation differently. It may well be that this will be the new normal when it comes to apps, but I think we're all still finding our legs in the marketplace. (I can't tell if you agree or think I'm an *****.) Ironically, I think the best thing people can do to voice their displeasure is to...leave a review, saying that they don't enjoy having their workflow interrupted by popups asking for reviews.

    But let me be clear: my ONLY issue is with those apps that don't respect (or don't offer) a "Don't Ask Again" choice. At some point, it becomes like a telemarketing robocall that rings your phone over and over, or that drunk guy in the bar that doesn't want to take no for an answer.
    Nah, I don't think your an *****. 😉

    I dislike nagging popups too. Mainly just playing devil's advocate by pointing out that this "pay and never see ads" paradigm may have been a norm for software, but its not the norm for other things we purchase.
  25. #50  
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    Default Re: Please stop!

    Quote Originally Posted by Timhewitt View Post
    Clearly many of us have a problem with apps that pester the user, and I am no exception to that.

    My apps put up a review request once. You can press the Review, Later, Never buttons and we will respect your choice.
    I have no problem with that process. I think the OP was referring to some of your peers who don't have that same respect for the customer. As long as the app gives me time to actually use it before asking me, and once I say no or later, it stops bugging me; I have no issue with 'politely' asking for a review.

    I may have misunderstood some of your earlier replies. It kinda seemed as if you were defending some of the other developers with a different mindset. I do think the app experience has more to do with the willingness to leave a review, than the suggestion to do so. But I am sure that is a personal thing, and on a global scale the suggestion may work due to the tendency for people to respond on impulse.

    From what you and Alli say about the analytics, it would seem that Apple should provide you(developers) with more details, so that you can use it effectively. But that kinda leans to the idea that reviews aren't intended to help developers as much as the customer.

    **-- I completely understand your company making sure there is a clear presence, and not wanting it muddled. What if Tim (not saying this would happen) made some crazy comments somewhere that offended a bunch of people. And he was known as been a part of Company ABC with App XYZ; this could affect the company's image greatly.
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