How much better can lightning headphones be (technical details appreciated)?

[garfieldthecat]

Things change, and some people don't like change. Fire years from now it might be that you can't buy a single phone with a 1960's jack incorporated into the design.

Sure, that's why Steve Jobs used to drive cars with non-round wheels, because round wheels were such an old technology and we always have to constantly innovate, right? :laughing:

The truth is, some things just work and do not need to be changed, other than for marketing and greed. If i am wrong, I haven't exactly been blown away with detailed explanations on why lightning headphones provide better sound quality - if anything, quite the opposite!

 

[garfieldthecat]

It is for a lot of us.. I use Square and will have to deal with the adapter until Square sends us all a lightning jack connector. Granted I don't use it every day.. so not a big deal for me. Your mileage may vary.

As for the actual topic, even if the lightning connector would provide better sound over the old jack, not sure I would really hear the difference. I think my hearing is pretty good, but that minor change for a MP3 file is (lack of a better term) microscopic. Maybe for a true audiophile, there could be a subtle difference. All that being said, I think now they can come out with better headsets because of the options that the port allows. That part I am excited to see... what progresses in the next year.

I am not following. First you say you expect not to be able to tell the difference, then you say you are excited to see the better headsetsthat will come out? And why would they be any better?

 

[Craig]

Totally off topic! Why on Earth is it so hard to keep this discussion on topic? Again, if you want to talk about how you like this change or not and why, there are other discussions! This was meant to be about the technicalities of lightning vs non-lightning headphones.

It goes off topic, because one person (not you) decides to take it off topic by talking about in a nutshell) how the iPhone 7 w/o a headphone jack is bad for their business and everything that is wrong about removing it, etc. So once it derails, it's hard to get back on track. It's like a car accident, once one happens and you have to drive around it, the conversation changes to the wreck. So welcome to a topic car wreck.

 

[C6TX6]

You should be able to get PCM digital out AND analog directly from the lightning connector. My adapter is still in the box but I do intend to hook it up to one of my Allen & Heath boards in the studio and run it through its paces. To date the best phone for driving headphones, even big power hungry cans, was the HTC 10!

Since lightning is so versatile this opens a market for a plethora of devices. Cases can be installed on the phone with built in credit card readers that take chip cards. Square can't do that. If you've shopped at the Apple store you have seen these devices in action.

These cases can be used to increase run time (built in 3Ah battery), output very high quality signal (built in DAC/ADC) have balanced in/out or high quality stereo mics converting the phone into a high quality recording device, onboard microSD slots to increase storage beyond 2TB. The list goes on and on. All over 1 connection. I do believe in the future they will have to eventually move to USB type C. Imagine hooking your iPhone to a Mac/PC and being able to transfer photos and music at over 1GB/S! The PCI-E SSDs are that fast and the current iPhones now use nvme so access to their flash is lightning fast (pun not intended here).

The 1/8" TRS connection is dead. Glad to see it go on our devices TBH.

I remember when the floppy disk drive was killed off abruptly and people squealed about that too.

 

[robertk328]

I'm curious to see how much better/different the Lightning earpods are. Anyone see any side-by-side comparison reviews?

 

[garfieldthecat]

You should be able to get PCM digital out AND analog directly from the lightning connector. My adapter is still in the box but I do intend to hook it up to one of my Allen & Heath boards in the studio and run it through its paces. To date the best phone for driving headphones, even big power hungry cans, was the HTC 10!

The technology that produces the audio we listen to has nothing to do with the connection type: the drivers of a set of earphone do not 'improve' just because there is lighting connector. For example, in top-of-the-range in-ear-monitors (earphones) like the Westone and the Shure the cable can be replaced; Westone makes a bluetooth cable, meaning the same set of earphones can be used as wired or as bluetooth.

From what I understand, lightning headphones could potentially be better if they have some sort of DAC that supports 24bit, hi-res audio. s far as I know, there is no other potential advantage in terms of audio quality; if there is, I'd like to know - this was the whole point of my thread before it got hijacked! To get hi-res audio, however, you need:

• software which supports it
• files encoded in 24-bit: no use playing a 128 kbit mp3 with hi-res equipment!
• a DAC; 24-bit DACs are not tiny; will Apple be able to squeeze one into a set of headphones? I doubt it; definitely not in a pair of earphones

All of this tends to be bulky (because of the DAC), expensive, useless for all the currently available not hi-res audio content, plus you will need very good ears to tell the difference.

My two cents is that, for 99.99% of users, lightning will NOT result in better quality of the audio.

On that last point (needing good ears): we humans tend to be extremely unreliable; just telling someone that product A is more expensive than product B is likely to lead them to think that A is better. For example, there is a very strong reason why medical trials are conducted as double-blind: patients don't know if they are in the placebo group, and nor do the doctors monitoring their progress. Just like many wine connoisseurs struggle to tell the difference between cheap and expensive wine in a blind tasting, I do wonder how many audiophiles would be able to really tell the difference among different types of headphones.

Since lightning is so versatile this opens a market for a plethora of devices. Cases can be installed on the phone with built in credit card readers that take chip cards. Square can't do that. If you've shopped at the Apple store you have seen these devices in action.

There was no need to remove the audio jack to do these things, though. Oh, and you can potentially do the same with microusb or usb-C.
[...]

The 1/8" TRS connection is dead. Glad to see it go on our devices TBH.

I remember when the floppy disk drive was killed off abruptly and people squealed about that too.

The difference is that floppy disk was becoming inadequate: we needed more storage, and other solutions offered that. None of this is even remotely applicable to the audio jack. The audio jack is not inadequate nor obsolete; the connector (jack, usb, lightning or else) does not affect the technology which actually produces the sound we listen to; getting hi-res audio through lightning is possible, just like it is with the audio jack, but it has the same drawbacks it has with the jack: bulk, cost, inapplicability to the vast majority of current content, etc.

 

[robsawalker]

I'm not talking about DAC's. I'm talking about the ability to make the audio sound good. Fine tuning actually frequencies of audio. Radsone allows this, however it doesn't work that well because the iPhone itself can't push audio properly. This was done in a side by side comparison of using Radsone and its 10 band equalizer side by side with my Fiio X5 and its 10 band equalizer, both while using my Shure SE310's. The iPhone just cannot push audio to the degree it needs to be. The average user will never notice and never care. I do.

In that case, the new iPhone is better for you as it is DAC agnostic. The lightning port is unable to pass an analogue signal, so you can add whatever DAC and Amp you want and tune it until your head bursts. Before the iP7 you were limited by the phones internal DAC and Amp. So now you can celebrate!

 

[metllicamilitia]

In that case, the new iPhone is better for you as it is DAC agnostic. The lightning port is unable to pass an analogue signal, so you can add whatever DAC and Amp you want and tune it until your head bursts. Before the iP7 you were limited by the phones internal DAC and Amp. So now you can celebrate!

I wish that were the case, however I doubt Apple has done anything to improve the inner workings of the audio hardware. And still, there is no functional equalizer.

 

[robsawalker]

I wish that were the case, however I doubt Apple has done anything to improve the inner workings of the audio hardware. And still, there is no functional equalizer.

You misunderstand - there is NO 'inner hardware' for audio passed through the lightning port. It simply passes the compressed digital out to whatever DAC and Amp are plugged into the phone. So the iPhone 7 sound quality (via the lightning port) will depend entirely on what you plug into it.

 

[metllicamilitia]

You misunderstand - there is NO 'inner hardware' for audio passed through the lightning port. It simply passes the compressed digital out to whatever DAC and Amp are plugged into the phone. So the iPhone 7 sound quality (via the lightning port) will depend entirely on what you plug into it.

There are internal components on media players for audio. Like an audio chip, and soundboard, and such. An equalizer tweaks sound by frequency. If the internal components can't handle that tweaking, it's makes the sound bad even if it's slightly better. This is quite noticeable on iPhone. The app Radsone has a ten band equalizer, while it makes the sound much better than stock, it really makes the iPhones inferior audio components shine through.

 

[robsawalker]

There are internal components on media players for audio. Like an audio chip, and soundboard, and such. An equalizer tweaks sound by frequency. If the internal components can't handle that tweaking, it's makes the sound bad even if it's slightly better. This is quite noticeable on iPhone. The app Radsone has a ten band equalizer, while it makes the sound much better than stock, it really makes the iPhones inferior audio components shine through.

Audio on the iPhone is not considered to be inferior at all. It may not be the absolute best but is up there. But this is not relevant on the 7 unless you are talking about the phones loudspeakers. ANY AUDIO passed through the lightning port will not be processed by ANY audio chips or soundboards in the phone itself. Lightning cannot process analogue signal (USB-C can though) so all the signal processing for you to hear music on an iPhone 7 begins AFTER it had left the phone. The jack on the lightning cord contains the DAC and Amp which are used. If you want better sound, buy a better set of lightning headphones and they will have a different DAC and Amp. Or bluetooth headphones which also contain their own DAC and Amp.

 

[tigerinexile]

Lightning headphones can be better. That being said, in practice, most won't go that route, and Apple will succeed in pushing most of us to take the leap to Bluetooth headphones.

But sure, the audiophiles can get headphones with better DACs, and probably already have been doing so.

But although that's been a pitch, let's not pretend this is about that. It's about getting people to move to wireless. And it'll work.

 

[garfieldthecat]

Lightning headphones can be better. That being said, in practice, most won't go that route, and Apple will succeed in pushing most of us to take the leap to Bluetooth headphones.

But sure, the audiophiles can get headphones with better DACs, and probably already have been doing so.

What makes a better DAC, exactly, other than, say, hi-res 24 bit audio vs standard non hi-res audio?
How important is a 'better' (however defined) DAC vs a 'better' sound-producing technology of the headphones/earphones? Eg let's say we listen to a track on a pair of Shure or Westone or Ultimate Ears top-of-the-range earphones, connected to an Iphone 6. How would this combination compare vs a 'better' DAC but poorer quality earphones?

But although that's been a pitch, let's not pretend this is about that. It's about getting people to move to wireless. And it'll work.

I think it's about moving people to Apple proprietary technologies, regardless of whether they are wireless or not.

 

[metllicamilitia]

What makes a better DAC, exactly, other than, say, hi-res 24 bit audio vs standard non hi-res audio?
How important is a 'better' (however defined) DAC vs a 'better' sound-producing technology of the headphones/earphones? Eg let's say we listen to a track on a pair of Shure or Westone or Ultimate Ears top-of-the-range earphones, connected to an Iphone 6. How would this combination compare vs a 'better' DAC but poorer quality earphones?

I think it's about moving people to Apple proprietary technologies, regardless of whether they are wireless or not.

The Hi-Fi headphones will make all imperfections shine, including poor DAC's. Assuming you have the ear for it of course.

 

[tigerinexile]

What makes a better DAC, exactly, other than, say, hi-res 24 bit audio vs standard non hi-res audio?
How important is a 'better' (however defined) DAC vs a 'better' sound-producing technology of the headphones/earphones? Eg let's say we listen to a track on a pair of Shure or Westone or Ultimate Ears top-of-the-range earphones, connected to an Iphone 6. How would this combination compare vs a 'better' DAC but poorer quality earphones?

I think it's about moving people to Apple proprietary technologies, regardless of whether they are wireless or not.

Re the DAC, it could've been done with an iPhone 5, 5s, 6 or 6s, via the Lightning port.

Wireless headphones work with the 7, regardless of manufacturer. I use a $20 pair of Insignia wireless earbuds while I decide whether to do the Bose Soundsport ones or the Airpods. The $20 wireless ones are as good as the wired earbuds, imho.