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  1. #51  
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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by ame View Post
    So why the hate for Unions then? And why bite the hand that fed you and gave you the opportunities beyond being just a white man gives you and probably provided your father and family a living and fair wage for all those years, a pension for your mom after he retired and health benefits far exceeding most other career paths or trades? Your acting like you're owed more than oxygen by this life. The people of your father's generation and even the ones before him gave their LIVES to fight for a fair wage for all of us to follow. My parents generation, this next upcoming generation, and my own gen x, can't see their hand in front of their face. They don't see the future they're leaving for the next few generations. They don't care about anyone but themselves. They don't care that without Unions, no one is equal or fair, and that we're going backwards. You probably got your job in your Manhattan Financial firm thinking you were qualified on paper. But I would bet you money that you were hired because you were a white man. And if not white, you're just a man. And if you were up against a far more qualified woman, of any race, you being a white dude, you got hired over her regardless of your qualifications. And if she also got hired later, she gets paid significantly less than you, and has far less opportunity for advancement. Regardless of what any "policy" the company states they have, women are far less likely to advance, and do not get paid equally. Without a Union, I as a woman, white or not, have no chance of being promoted or paid equally to you, regardless of my qualifications. Look at it from your wife's perspective (assuming you are married). She's not promoted despite being well earned, or paid equal to a male colleague, simply because of her genitalia. Now--I realize you say Carpenters above, and they are one Union that has a lot of problems within the ranks of the Construction trades, and themselves. They are one that has a lot of corruption, but their rank and file are quite loyal to the membership. So having an issue with a "Union Boss" in the ranks there, not entirely shocking. But not all of the Unions, as I have said before, are corrupt or have issues.

    As for the comment above about "greedy Americans" being caused by Unions....Unions have very little to do with this entitlement nonsense. That's across the board, and its been most pronounced with the people who hate Unions the most, the ones who want all the "government handouts" to stop, while complaining about how horrible the roads and traffic are, and how much it sucks to have to pay for health insurance but that feel they should have the best quality health coverage, a safe city and their house safe from fires, how dare anyone get unemployment extended (but when I get laid off I better get it!) but without paying a dime for any of it.
    Ok, I can see that there is nothing to be gained here. You are a liberal, pro union woman with an axe to grind. And I am offended that you continue to state that I am what I am and have what I have because I’m a white male. You don’t know me nor do you know anything about me.

    I never said that I hated unions. What I said was that they served a purpose, but IMHO, they have outlived that purpose. My father worked hard for everything he got. He actually grew up in an orphanage, and he never for a moment believed that he was entitled to anything that he didn’t earn. And he taught me that, as well. I have a good job, working in IT. I didn’t get here because I was "white" or "male" - and I am offended that you would even suggest that. I got here because I worked to put myself through school. I earned a degree in IT. I started in an entry level position some 30 years ago worked my way up in this industry. It is by the grace of God and my own hard work that I have been able to create a nice, albeit modest life for myself and my family. My wife works at a local university, and she is paid on par with the other workers in her office - regardless of their gender. She has also been promoted over men in her office. And she has lost out on another promotion to a man in her office. I hate to disappoint you, but genitalia has nothing to do with it.

    And I find it incredibly suspicious that the only union in the whole country that has "issues" is the union to which my father belonged for all of his adult working life. When I see my brother-in-law go to the GM shop in Flint Michigan and not work (because he’s been assigned to the "job bank"), I can’t help but believe that the unions have a LOT to do with the entitlement mentality in this country. The liberals in charge of the "cradle-to-grave" handouts are also complicit in this B.S., but by and large they are supported by the unions, so IMO, they are one and the same.
    Last edited by Fausty82; 11-28-2012 at 10:41 PM.
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  2. #52  
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    Apple should come back to the US-imageuploadedbytapatalk1354165800.532172.jpg
  3. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanHRCC View Post
    It's funny that you understand it as being purely a profit driven situation...when in reality, it's a combination of things that keep manufacturing over seas.

    For starters, you naively assume that the people who would do the work here would some how increase the QC that goes into the product...have you paid attention to the last 20+ years of American made cars? Only just recently have quality satisfaction ratings risen above "poor" on cars made in the U.S., and that is ONLY because the big three manufacturers are literally walking on egg shells and must over perform to meet the expectations placed on them by the government, tax payers and consumers. Then look at the overseas companies that bring manufacturing here to the states...check out the satisfaction ratings of people who bought BMW models built in Germany vs. those built here in the states. It speaks worlds.
    Utter nonsense..

    Secondly...the % of money that would be redirected back into the product is not something that a company can just plug in and KNOW consumers will be ok with. You might be, a million consumers might be, but when you're dealing with tens of millions of consumers, you have to look at the whole picture. Let's say your 15% number is right just for arguments sake, at an unlocked price of $649, your % equals almost $100 in extra cost to the consumer...and with a product that costs so little, that amount of increase is going to dramatically effect sales. Look at how people react to gas prices...the changes there are MUCH smaller, and MUCH more spread out...but people absolutely lose their minds about it. This product isn't a necessity, it's a luxury...
    Many companies still thrive here, I've never seen a company that went overseas lower their prices to reflect the labor savings, so why would it go up if they returned? Maybe the executives would have to do without the 4th private jet, the horror!

    Lastly, the pay to the employees is only one tiny piece of the puzzle when it comes to overseas manufacturing...taxes, pollution and waste disposal regulations, employee benefit costs, etc etc etc...the list goes for MILES vs. overseas production. Take that 15% you blindly estimated and jack it up A LOT more to be realistic.
    Our corporate tax rates are very low, all the taxes, regulations, environmental concerns are simple realities we must face, just look at Wal Marts fat profits, they benefit a handful of extremely wealthy people, they pay their employees low wages with little or no benefits. Guess who then pays for it? The US taxpayer. One way or another we all pay, all so the executives and CEO's can live like kings and queens. In the 50's we were better off and mostly everything was made here, this race to the bottom has certainly not improved our situation. It's a sad state we are in, if the only way people can have their toys is to have low wage slaves build them. This is an interesting take on it > Just think if corporations didn't leave the taxpayers picking up the tab for their employees healthcare and cost of living how much we could have invested in education and infrastructure in the last few decades with the money instead. We should be investing in our people and improving our country instead of subsidizing the profit margins of corporations. That isn't free market Capitalism, that's corporate socialism.


    In the end, the products we know, use and love would end up costing a staggering amount more...with ZERO guarantee of better quality (and based on historic record, a pretty good assumption that QC would maintain or lower).
    Henry Ford proved you wrong, you don't see the hidden costs of cheap foreign junk, if the true costs were added they'd likely be more.
    Last edited by redbeard; 11-29-2012 at 05:02 AM.
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  4. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty82 View Post
    If (or when) that happens, you will have the government and the unions to blame.
    Ridiculous.. It's big business and their allies pushing low wages onto the workers.


    Unions served their purpose back in the day... but in today's world all they do is screw up everything for everyone.
    Please define "screw up everything for everyone", sounds like am radio gibberish to me. I can provide mountains upon mountains of facts about how big business and the top management actually did screw most things up and really screw millions over, so please stick to facts here.

    They protect workers who screw up and dont produce. They have given us the "job bank" mentality where workers with no assignment go sit all day and collect their pay. The unions refused to let the companies reduce staff, even when there is no work for them. My brother-in-law is currently in that situation at a GM plant in Flint, MI.
    I don't think anyone believes everything unions do is right, however, the damage done to our economy by the executive class is un-comparable. It is the business lobbying groups that gave us disastrous free trade agreements which only benefited those at the top, unions didn't wreck our economy, Wall st and K street took care of that. Then of course these same people hire pr firms to spread their message of blaming workers and unions, never telling the truth about their incompetence and greed that has vaporized so many people's pensions and jobs. You guys should look up how much those vaunted German workers get paid, funny how it hasn't bankrupted their companies.
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  5. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    Since we are talking about Unions now, I'll use Hostess as my example. The workers were making great money but the union bosses thought they deserved more. The company couldn't afford to pay more, and the rest is history. Unions are no good in 2012.
    I just have to chime in here to agree with ame, you have it completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ame View Post
    Actually, Hostess came out of their first bankruptcy still millions in debt, rare, and practically unheard of. Yet in light of that fact, they were paying their CEO's millions in salary, some even got insane raises and bonuses within the last few months. That single CEO's yearly salary alone could've paid years in salaries and pensions for the $15/hr workers and that's not even factoring in his massive bonus, the one which he still gets paid despite running them back into a 2nd bankruptcy again so soon after taking the reigns. You do not pay a CEO or any executive a salary of that amount when you are that far in the hole and expect to actually get out of debt. Period. You pay him 1 til they are in the black, as you do all the Sr. Management, THEN you figure out how to deal with his salary and if he gets a bonus when and IF they are ever in the black. Add to the fact that they as a company did NO new product innovation in decades. That is a dying company. Again, not a Union problem, that's management.

    So explain to me how that is a Union's fault? The "Union Bosses" weren't making much money, nor were the Union workers. $15 an hour is hardly a lifelong sustainable wage, nor is it one that breaks a huge corporation, nor is it "great money". So how is that an example of why Unions are no good in 2012? Sounds like you have listened to the propaganda and not done a lot of actual research.
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  6. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    Since we are talking about Unions now, I'll use Hostess as my example. The workers were making great money but the union bosses thought they deserved more. The company couldn't afford to pay more, and the rest is history. Unions are no good in 2012.
    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    I've worked with Union employees on the job, and I can tell you from experience that the entire structure is crap. They make it so that people who are qualified and knowledgeable cant get jobs or appropriate wages because they are forcing companies to pay for people or services they don't need. The number of right to work states is rising and I think we will see an end to unions before too long. Either the unions go or the US economy goes. I'm hoping its not the economy.
    Well if your wish comes true, you'll see our economy truly die, and you'll be competing with that Foxconn worker like the corporations would like you to.
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  7. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    "Republican tactics"? You mean like another Party's deliberate attempt to force "the rich" to pay their "fair share" and prevent them from making money "off the backs of poor people" when in fact that rhetoric filled tactic is essentially to redistribute wealth from the private sector over to the government sector allegedly made of the people, by the people & for the people, yet "we the people" will also be burdened by heavy taxes and forced to be dependent on a new all-powerful government instead of powerfully independent of government? I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself. ...
    The elite thank you for doing their bidding for them I'm sure, but they'll still pay you a dollar per day when the unions are gone, the elite don't care about you, they only care about themselves, but you keep believing it will all trickle down someday..
    Last edited by redbeard; 11-29-2012 at 05:04 AM.
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  8. #58  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ame View Post
    So why the hate for Unions then? And why bite the hand that fed you and gave you the opportunities beyond being just a white man gives you and probably provided your father and family a living and fair wage for all those years, a pension for your mom after he retired and health benefits far exceeding most other career paths or trades? Your acting like you're owed more than oxygen by this life.* The people of your father's generation and even the ones before him gave their LIVES to fight for a fair wage for all of us to follow. My parents generation, this next upcoming generation, and my own gen x, can't see their hand in front of their face. They don't see the future they're leaving for the next few generations. They don't care about anyone but themselves. They don't care that without Unions, no one is equal or fair, and that we're going backwards. You probably got your job in your Manhattan Financial firm thinking you were qualified on paper. But I would bet you money that you were hired because you were a white man. And if not white, you're just a man. And if you were up against a far more qualified woman, of any race, you being a white dude, you got hired over her regardless of your qualifications. And if she also got hired later, she gets paid significantly less than you, and has far less opportunity for advancement. Regardless of what any "policy" the company states they have, women are far less likely to advance, and do not get paid equally. Without a Union, I as a woman, white or not, have no chance of being promoted or paid equally to you, regardless of my qualifications. Look at it from your wife's perspective (assuming you are married). She's not promoted despite being well earned, or paid equal to a male colleague, simply because of her genitalia. Now--I realize you say Carpenters above, and they are one Union that has a lot of problems within the ranks of the Construction trades, and themselves. They are one that has a lot of corruption, but their rank and file are quite loyal to the membership. So having an issue with a "Union Boss" in the ranks there, not entirely shocking. But not all of the Unions, as I have said before, are corrupt or have issues.

    As for the comment above about "greedy Americans" being caused by Unions....Unions have very little to do with this entitlement nonsense. That's across the board, and its been most pronounced with the people who hate Unions the most, the ones who want all the "government handouts" to stop, while complaining about how horrible the roads and traffic are, and how much it sucks to have to pay for health insurance but that feel they should have the best quality health coverage, a safe city and their house safe from fires, how dare anyone get unemployment extended (but when I get laid off I better get it!) but without paying a dime for any of it. *
    So very true, and damn, if we're going to talk about corruption, unions can't hold a candle to corporations, corporations have successfully taken over our entire government, hence why it is so horribly run. Instead of having people who have our interests in mind, they just do what's good for the bottom line of big business and then blame the little guy on their media networks for all our problems. Sad so many fall for it. A man making 50k a year working his *** off who is in a union is "overpaid", but a CEO who spends his days at the country club who makes 50 million is not. What a triumph of Orwellian propaganda that is on their part!
    Last edited by redbeard; 11-29-2012 at 05:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty82 View Post
    Everyone should pay their fair share - but those who risk their wealth and means should not be penalized for doing so. The liberals have engaged in class warfare for years - with the express purpose of providing cradle-to-grave "entitlements" ... where do you think that money comes from? As Ronald Reagan said "government is not the solution to our problem. Government IS the problem".
    Penalized?? Class warfare? Right, because a multi-decade long war on the middle class by the rich which has been very very successful for the 1%, is actually class warfare by liberals. Nothing says entitlements like endless subsidies and corporate welfare for corporations that make billions in profit every year.

    It always amazes me how so many people will go to bat for those that are at war with them.

    Government is the problem when you're an ordinary American, but when you're a large corporation, government is your best friend.

    Where do you think the money for corporate welfare or health costs for Wal Mart employees comes from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanHRCC View Post
    I'm a part of the federal union of law enforcement and protective services officers...it's one of the strongest unions in the country and they do some great things for us without as much as a finger lifted on our part (though some substantial dollars invested)...that said, they also make bone head moves, push non-issues into major procedural changes that cause nothing but headache and have been known to be quite inconsistent with support of individuals.

    I see the good and the bad, but given i have no choice to participate in it, i just go with it and hope for the best...they've increased my salary faster than any local government union would have, but they've also cost me a lot of time with BS changes that require redundant and wasteful training and classes.
    My wife is in a teacher's union for federal workers. She has no choice and certainly doesn't agree with everything they do. But she's grateful for the protection as well. So I see it both ways.
  11. #61  
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbeard View Post
    Utter nonsense..

    Many companies still thrive here, I've never seen a company that went overseas lower their prices to reflect the labor savings, so why would it go up if they returned? Maybe the executives would have to do without the 4th private jet, the horror!

    Our corporate tax rates are very low, all the taxes, regulations, environmental concerns are simple realities we must face, just look at Wal Marts fat profits, they benefit a handful of extremely wealthy people, they pay their employees low wages with little or no benefits. Guess who then pays for it? The US taxpayer. One way or another we all pay, all so the executives and CEO's can live like kings and queens. In the 50's we were better off and mostly everything was made here, this race to the bottom has certainly not improved our situation. It's a sad state we are in, if the only way people can have their toys is to have low wage slaves build them. This is an interesting take on it > Just think if corporations didn't leave the taxpayers picking up the tab for their employees healthcare and cost of living how much we could have invested in education and infrastructure in the last few decades with the money instead. We should be investing in our people and improving our country instead of subsidizing the profit margins of corporations. That isn't free market Capitalism, that's corporate socialism.

    Henry Ford proved you wrong, you don't see the hidden costs of cheap foreign junk, if the true costs were added they'd likely be more.
    Utter non-sense? lmao...i quit taking your post seriously when you made the 1950's comparison to modern day manufacturing and being "better off".

    Cheap foreign junk...as opposed to the amazing quality of the stuff produced here? Please...you know what the #1 complaint for consumers looking to buy an american made car was for the last 30 years? Cheap, poor quality interior components.

    Look, I'm all for bringing jobs to my country, when our country is doing better, even insignificantly, my quality of life increases. At no time would i PREFER, as a citizen, that work and money be sent to another country, but if you deny that our governing regulations, taxations and over bearing stresses they put on companies doesn't send this work else where you're a fool. And if you think the quality of products is some how going to miraculously increase by being produced here, you're not seeing reality. $12/hour laborers in U.S. manufacturing plants = $2/day laborers in overseas manufacturing plants. QC would remain the same or lower in most cases.
    Last edited by SeanHRCC; 11-29-2012 at 07:13 AM.
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  12. #62  
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    Default Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by jclisenby View Post
    It will never happen. With manufacturing costs here in the US, there's absolutely no way that Apple could make their products here and make a profit. Costs for products would have to go up 75-100% to maintain profitability for Apple. That means your iPhone would be $400 on-contract and your new 13" MacBook Pro would run you $5,000 instead of $2500.
    First and foremost, welcome back. It's been a while.

    Now in regard to your comment, I have never been hired by a union. The paychecks I've received did not bear a union logo or any of its leadership signatures. Furthermore, the jobs that I've had that were NOT unionized paid me quite well. In my experience with unions, ALL of them ended up on the side of greed and thus caused the overall membership harm in the form of job loss. To be fair, a lot of the fault lied with the membership who fail to understand business (operating costs, etcetera). I wonder how many of you would get offended if you started a business, hired employees and paid them what you consider to be a good salary, offered good benefits and treated them well just to find out that they were instituting a union to protect them from your alleged unfair labor practices? What about people who get hired and reject union membership and then get harassed because of that rejection by union members? I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Is that fair? We can't sit here and say that Americans would demand good pay and benefits but then turn around and say that without unions, we would be paid a dollar and hour. That is a crock. Unions, in my opinion, are a blessing that end up being a curse over a period of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    First and foremost, welcome back. It's been a while.

    Now in regard to your comment, I have never been hired by a union. The paychecks I've received did not bear a union logo or any of its leadership signatures. Furthermore, the jobs that I've had that were NOT unionized paid me quite well. In my experience with unions, ALL of them ended up on the side of greed and thus caused the overall membership harm in the form of job loss. To be fair, a lot of the fault lied with the membership who fail to understand business (operating costs, etcetera). I wonder how many of you would get offended if you started a business, hired employees and paid them what you consider to be a good salary, offered good benefits and treated them well just to find out that they were instituting a union to protect them from your alleged unfair labor practices? What about people who get hired and reject union membership and then get harassed because of that rejection by union members? I've seen it happen with my own eyes. Is that fair? We can't sit here and say that Americans would demand good pay and benefits but then turn around and say that without unions, we would be paid a dollar and hour. That is a crock. Unions, in my opinion, are a blessing that end up being a curse over a period of time.
    Unions are a double edged sword...they fight for you while fighting against your well being under the guise of fighting for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanHRCC View Post
    Unions are a double edged sword...they fight for you while fighting against your well being under the guise of fighting for you.
    Yep, especially in government jobs.
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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    It's also about tax avoidance


    Apple needs a certain structure in place in order to benefit from discrepancies and incentives in different countries. Given the amount of money at stake building a $50M company in Luxembourg or Ireland is nothing compared to $Bs avoided in taxes elsewhere.

    Apple isn't alone in being big enough to warrant a sophisticated tax structure. Starbucks, Amazon and others all do the same because ultimately they're responsible to their shareholders not to citizens...


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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    It's also about tax avoidance



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    ps. Ops my browser burped and I thought it had lost my first post!
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    Default Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by skoenig View Post
    It's also about tax avoidance



    ~Steph
    More like excessive tax avoidance...
  18. #68  
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    Jeez. I went to bed when I should have been continuing this discussion!
    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    Why? For the sake of this discussion, let's say that I applied to work for Company A who paid me a generous salary which gave me the means to better provide for my family. Now, being that you think we should all be paying a TON more in taxes, wouldn't that weaken my ability to better provide for my family? How much of my salary that "I" worked for should i keep, in your opinion? please be specific. Furthermore, if I am to pay a TON more in taxes, is that in addition to or separate from income taxes? Speaking of "income taxes", you do realize that it is a tax on income. Those who do not earn an "income" do not pay income taxes and guess what, a great deal of those people are the very people allegedly in need of help while others are certain wealthy people. You do realize that many of the left leaning politicians are among that 2% and they, too, hide their money offshore to avoid paying taxes. Think of Warren Buffet. Isn't he still fighting to not pay back taxes while hypocritically claiming to be pro-tax? Here's a secret. We've been in a hole for a while and up until March 23, 2011 when the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act became effective, everything was salvageable. You're kidding, right?
    I absolutely realize that there are people on both sides of the aisle avoid paying their taxes, and that's why I say EVERYONE. And that tax reform is needed to close the loopholes. We all want the services we rely upon, police, fire, roads, etc., how do you expect they be paid for? They are paid for by our taxes, and if we were all paying more and not worrying so much about how to pay less and reduce a deficit created by wars we don't belong in and people not paying taxes at a sustainable rate for services we all demand as entitled Americans, we would have better quality of life, better healthcare coverage (if we had a good socialized system where no one was without good quality coverage that actually was designed to work), and not have everyone working themselves raw to provide for their families and missing time WITH their families. We live to work, not work to live. Maybe Ill make next session tax law instead of constitutional law...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty82 View Post
    Ok, I can see that there is nothing to be gained here. You are a liberal, pro union woman with an axe to grind. And I am offended that you continue to state that I am what I am and have what I have because I’m a white male. You don’t know me nor do you know anything about me.

    I never said that I hated unions. What I said was that they served a purpose, but IMHO, they have outlived that purpose. My father worked hard for everything he got. He actually grew up in an orphanage, and he never for a moment believed that he was entitled to anything that he didn’t earn. And he taught me that, as well. I have a good job, working in IT. I didn’t get here because I was "white" or "male" - and I am offended that you would even suggest that. I got here because I worked to put myself through school. I earned a degree in IT. I started in an entry level position some 30 years ago worked my way up in this industry. It is by the grace of God and my own hard work that I have been able to create a nice, albeit modest life for myself and my family. My wife works at a local university, and she is paid on par with the other workers in her office - regardless of their gender. She has also been promoted over men in her office. And she has lost out on another promotion to a man in her office. I hate to disappoint you, but genitalia has nothing to do with it.

    And I find it incredibly suspicious that the only union in the whole country that has "issues" is the union to which my father belonged for all of his adult working life. When I see my brother-in-law go to the GM shop in Flint Michigan and not work (because he’s been assigned to the "job bank"), I can’t help but believe that the unions have a LOT to do with the entitlement mentality in this country. The liberals in charge of the "cradle-to-grave" handouts are also complicit in this B.S., but by and large they are supported by the unions, so IMO, they are one and the same.
    Actually that's not what I said. I said they are ONE WITH issues, and that IS because of Union bosses, not because of people like your father. THE one with the most is probably a tossup between teachers and UAW. And I never said I am pro-Union. I just said they are definitely still necessary to protect the working public in this country, from business and from themselves. I am back in school studying law, and presently am in labor and employment law, and found that this last election combined with the research and factual reading I am doing in school is well timed. People in this country are so quick to forget, quick to blame, and quick to hate on Unions, despite Unions being the reason they have what they do have, including weekends for the vast majority of the employed. We as a country also choose to forget what we did to the Native Americans who inhabited this country before we got here and decided it was ours. Like I said earlier in the thread, Howard Zinn's book would open a lot of eyes. People are so quick to forget history. Not just anecdotal evidence, actual recorded historical fact.

    Also, I don't know you or anything about you, and regardless of how hard you worked or studied, your gender and race made a massive impact on your employer's decision to hire you, whether you choose to acknowledge that or not. Your dad worked hard to give you a different socioeconomic class than you would have otherwise had which did open the door for you to have better opportunities, opportunities to get the job you had now. But don't think for a minute that your race and gender didn't affect the outcome of your career.

    This thread seriously belongs elsewhere in this forum.

    And FYI, you are taking this personally, and taking offense, which is unnecessary. I am not offended, nor do I have an "axe to grind". I am trying to engage in an educated discussion with people who have varied opinions and educational backgrounds. Since it's getting out of hand, Ill stop and go back to lighter things. My gloves I won earlier this year were swell the other day when it was friggin freezing out.
    "Balls!" said the Queen, "if I had them I'd be King!"
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  19. #69  
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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    In a not totally unrelated vein, I see that Michigan, the home of the US auto industry will become the 24th Right-to-Work state today. There’s a lot of drama around this issue - including a state representative promising "there will be blood" if it happens. Wonder why they’re trying so hart to protect the unions?
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  20. #70  
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    Default Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty82 View Post
    In a not totally unrelated vein, I see that Michigan, the home of the US auto industry will become the 24th Right-to-Work state today. Theres a lot of drama around this issue - including a state representative promising "there will be blood" if it happens. Wonder why theyre trying so hart to protect the unions?
    I suspect it's more about protecting power & status.
  21. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    I suspect it's more about protecting power & status.
    BINGO.
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  22. #72  
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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanHRCC View Post
    Utter non-sense? lmao...i quit taking your post seriously when you made the 1950's comparison to modern day manufacturing and being "better off".

    Cheap foreign junk...as opposed to the amazing quality of the stuff produced here? Please...you know what the #1 complaint for consumers looking to buy an american made car was for the last 30 years? Cheap, poor quality interior components.

    Look, I'm all for bringing jobs to my country, when our country is doing better, even insignificantly, my quality of life increases. At no time would i PREFER, as a citizen, that work and money be sent to another country, but if you deny that our governing regulations, taxations and over bearing stresses they put on companies doesn't send this work else where you're a fool. And if you think the quality of products is some how going to miraculously increase by being produced here, you're not seeing reality. $12/hour laborers in U.S. manufacturing plants = $2/day laborers in overseas manufacturing plants. QC would remain the same or lower in most cases.
    I shouldn't take anything serious that is corporate pr parroted by someone I don't know, but I do because our nation has been taken over by corporations that are hell bent on destroying it, and it's going to take everyone, all 300 million of us to stop them. And I care..

    And yes, most consumer products these days come from third world nations, and are junk compared to stuff made here. Many of these foreign cars have been made right here in the USA for decades, or in high wage nations like Germany. The most unsafe, poorest quality cars in the world are currently made in China. Virtually everything made in first world nations where components aren't sourced from the cheapest of the cheap, and workers aren't worked to death, is of higher quality. I don't know where you could have picked up this idea that anything made in a third world factory is somehow better than anything made here. There used to be a time where the made in the USA label meant it was the best of the best. Using American cars as an example that nothing made in America can be made well, is not only ridiculous, it's insulting. American cars went through a period where they made a lot of junk, and who was to blame for that? Well it's the executive class that nickel and dimed everything in the pursuit of making the highest profit margins possible. Short sighted management who only seek out the highest short term profits, even if it costs the company in the long run is a reality of the modern American corporation. Yet these executives don't receive 1/10 of 1% the hatred, demonization, and vitriol hurled at them that unions do, even though many of these CEO's are silver spoon elitists that make millions off ruining companies, who have never got their fingernails dirty once in their lives. Why aren't they "lazy, stupid, greedy bums with a sense of entitlement?".

    As far as regulations and taxes go, it's nuts to think that somehow business shouldn't be regulated or taxed. Do you want to return to the Gilded age? We saw how that turned out for folks, there's damn good reasons why we have rules in place and taxes. What many people want basically is corporate anarchy, just allow them to do whatever the hell they want, and pay no taxes, all while receiving the benefits off of doing business and living here. Corporations have proven they cannot be trusted, regulations, which are basically laws that businesses have to abide by are necessary, and many companies still thrive here under them. It's just the mammoth corporate interests which want to do away with them so they can fulfill their endless greed. People have to live under laws and rules, it's insane to say that corporations shouldn't have to. And I know they spend a lot of money every year trying to convince people that our relatively weak regulations are such a huge "burden", even as they rake in record profits every quarter..

    And yes I think products made here would be better quality than a third world sweatshop, thanks to our regulations for one. And I cannot think of one product that had its quality go up after moving the factory to China, Mexico, Guatemala, or Bangladesh. In fact, I know of many products whose quality went into the gutter after sending the jobs elsewhere. Their retail prices didn't budge, quality went down.. So who benefitted? Not you or me, not the people who lost their jobs, only the executives of these companies gained from this race to the bottom. Why would anyone want to continue down this destructive path?



    ----

    Sorry to bring this back up so late, but I'm just getting back online after buying a new Mac after my windows based pc succumbed to a nasty computer virus..
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  23. #73  
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    Default Re: Apple should come back to the US

    Quote Originally Posted by Fausty82 View Post
    In a not totally unrelated vein, I see that Michigan, the home of the US auto industry will become the 24th Right-to-Work state today. Theres a lot of drama around this issue - including a state representative promising "there will be blood" if it happens. Wonder why theyre trying so hart to protect the unions?
    You mean "right to work for less". The states that have passed these un-democratic, oppressive laws all have lower wages than their union counterparts. But hey, that race to the bottom can't come soon enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustMe'D View Post
    I suspect it's more about protecting power & status.
    Of the powerful corporate elite like the Koch ******* brothers, and other UN-American, soul-less evil of the world..
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