Samsung Suing Apple

[DannyMichel]

I looked for a thread on it, but couldn't find one.
What does everyone think?
Samsung to Sue Apple Over iPhone 5 Tech Patents: Report - International Business Times

 

[Jellotime91]

Well, Samsung practically owns South Korea entirely so I'm sure they could ban whatever the hell they want there regardless of the validity of their claims.

Oh and if people really want to see a company using patents to stifle innovation, THIS is it.
"For as long as Apple does not drop mobile telecommunications functions, it would be impossible for it to sell its i-branded products without using our patents. We will stick to a strong stance against Apple during the lingering legal fights"

That's a hell of a lot different than Apple suing them for very specific UI patents. They're suing for the actual telephone functionality...

 

[Premium1]

Well since Apple did pretty much try and get all samsung products banned all over I could see this happening. Also if the new iphone does indeed have a larger screen and a different home button more similar to the sgs2 then it makes sense. I mean apple expects everyone to pay or stop making a product so why should any other company with patents not be able to do the same? These companies are all sue happy since the floodgates have opened.

 

[Jellotime91]

Well since Apple did pretty much try and get all samsung products banned all over I could see this happening. Also if the new iphone does indeed have a larger screen and a different home button more similar to the sgs2 then it makes sense. I mean apple expects everyone to pay or stop making a product so why should any other company with patents not be able to do the same? These companies are all sue happy since the floodgates have opened.

Dude the new iPhone's form factor has nothing to do with this lawsuit. They are trying to sue because of mobile communications patents which Samsung holds in South Korea. I.E. they are suing Apple for making a phone, period.

 

[Eileen89]

IMHO, I think they should both drop these lawsuits. Period. They have gotten to the point where it doesn't even make any sense. Both Samsung and Apple make some nice phones, so why not stop wasting everyone's time holding them up in the courts and just start selling the dang things already!

 

[Premium1]

IMHO, I think they should both drop these lawsuits. Period. They have gotten to the point where it doesn't even make any sense. Both Samsung and Apple make some nice phones, so why not stop wasting everyone's time holding them up in the courts and just start selling the dang things already!

Agree we need a judge to say these two csnt sue eachother and let them sell their products. But we know that isn't going to happen.

 

[Premium1]

Dude the new iPhone's form factor has nothing to do with this lawsuit. They are trying to sue because of mobile communications patents which Samsung holds in South Korea. I.E. they are suing Apple for making a phone, period.

Well patents are patents and as flawed as it is it has worked for and against apple. In this case its against apple.

 

[Jellotime91]

IMHO, I think they should both drop these lawsuits. Period. They have gotten to the point where it doesn't even make any sense. Both Samsung and Apple make some nice phones, so why not stop wasting everyone's time holding them up in the courts and just start selling the dang things already!

The difference is that Apple actually has legitimate UI patents against Samsung. I don't believe that the people who worked tirelessly on Apple's UI deserve to have their work copied relentlessly with no retribution. I think that's bull.

Well patents are patents and as flawed as it is it has worked for and against apple. In this case its against apple.

You can't pretend you don't see the difference in the validity of the two lawsuits... There's a difference between Apple suing over very specific UI behaviours and Samsung suing over Apple just making a phone.

 

[Premium1]

The difference is that Apple actually has legitimate UI patents against Samsung. I don't believe that the people who worked tirelessly on Apple's UI deserve to have their work copied relentlessly with no retribution. I think that's bull.



You can't pretend you don't see the difference in the validity of the two lawsuits... There's a difference between Apple suing over very specific UI behaviours and Samsung suing over Apple just making a phone.

Apple sued over the touchpad which was stock google and didn't have touchwiz and were suing for it being a rectangle basicly. The lawsuit over the sgs I understand but it isn't like touchwiz wasnt around in last years sgs so why now all the sudden? Well samsung holds the patents so they shouldn't get what they have worked on? Or does that just work with apple they should get all the money and no other company should get anything?

 

[Jellotime91]

Apple sued over the touchpad which was stock google and didn't have touchwiz and were suing for it being a rectangle basicly. The lawsuit over the sgs I understand but it isn't like touchwiz wasnt around in last years sgs so why now all the sudden? Well samsung holds the patents so they shouldn't get what they have worked on? Or does that just work with apple they should get all the money and no other company should get anything?

I assume you mean the Motorola Xoom, in which case I agree that that suit was bogus.

With regards to Apple suddenly suing Samsung over TouchWiz, it takes a while for these things to get into litigation, and Apple also has the right to wait until the opportune time to sue whoever they want to. These things need to be approached strategically.

 

[Premium1]

I assume you mean the Motorola Xoom, in which case I agree that that suit was bogus.

With regards to Apple suddenly suing Samsung over TouchWiz, it takes a while for these things to get into litigation, and Apple also has the right to wait until the opportune time to sue whoever they want to. These things need to be approached strategically.

No I am talking about the galaxy tab which does not have touchwiz. You know the one they tried to have banned in about every country lol. The xoom suit was bogus I agree but so was with the galaxy tab.

 

[DrewBear]

The lawsuits between Apple & Samsung are complex and will take many years to sort out. My non-expert understanding is that they fall into three broad categories: trade dress, FRAND and unencumbered (non-FRAND). The following are very broad definitions. It would be helpful if someone can correct any mistakes, preferably in layman's terms so most of us can understand.

The trade dress type of lawsuits are what allowed Apple to effectively delay Samsung tablet sales in Germany and Australia. Very roughly speaking Apple claimed Samsung copied the iPad's appearance. This is not just the "slab of glass with rounded corners & metal rim" look, but includes the look of app icons, packaging, advertising stills, power cables, etc. It is a package of small details that give an overall impression the Samsung product is actually an Apple product. You could argue that only morons would mistake a Tab for an iPad, but that's beside the point.

The FRAND lawsuits are what Samsung is mostly suing Apple for. My very basic understanding is that these are patents that must be licensed at industry standard rates. Apple allegedly wanted to license these from Samsung and was rejected because Samsung wanted to cross-license the FRAND patents against non-FRAND patents. It would be like asking to trade a million Pokemon cards for one Willie Mays rookie card. Apple rightly rejected that idea.

The non-FRAND patents are not subject to mandatory licensing requirements. Apple holds these patents for the sole purpose of protecting the technologies they developed for their own products. They have no interest in getting license fees. They want Samsung to stop infringing these patents and find a different way to make their devices.

It's too late to argue that the patent and trademark systems are broken. They are what they are and any changes in law are not likely to be retroactive. Whatever the various courts decide, there will be people who disagree.

Worst case scenario for Apple is they have to start paying patent fees to Samsung. They've already set aside money for that, so this will not have much of an effect. Worst case scenario for Samsung is they have to change how they design their phones & tablets, including parts of the Android interface. That's not as easy as it sounds.

 

[Raptor007]

I agree completely, the lawsuits should come to a close and both parties should be forced to come to a settlement. I will say though if Samsung has patents that Apple openly violates they have a sound case to force the same level of enforcement to block the infringing products.

To me the Trade Dress issue is subjective, I have never been confused when looking at a Samsung products vs an Apple product, I have yet to mistake a Galaxy Tab with an iPad to me they looking nothing alike. But that is me.

The legal battles from all sides MS, Apple, Google (All Android OEM's) has done little to benefit commerce, technology or job growth. It seems all parties involved will simply continue to use the nuclear option until they are all dead.

Do not forget, Apple has zero issue with stealing ideas or concepts from other companies, Jobs has said it, Apple does it and iOS clearly shows it. Maybe Google should have patented the notification bar with slide down feature or wireless sync or some other features and then sued Apple for it. I personally feel those patents would be obvious and stupid but then again we have the USPTO rubber stamping everything for decades and this is what we get for it.

 

[DrewBear]

I agree completely, the lawsuits should come to a close and both parties should be forced to come to a settlement. I will say though if Samsung has patents that Apple openly violates they have a sound case to force the same level of enforcement to block the infringing products.

The spotlight right now is on the Oracle vs Google lawsuit. The judge is forcing the two parties to negotiate, but they can't force them to come to a settlement. Either party always has the option of going to trial.

There's a huge difference between the patents that Samsung & Apple have. Apple is willing to pay for Samsung's FRAND patents under the industry standard rates and Samsung must license those. So far they've essentially refused. Apple is not under the same obligation to license their non-FRAND patents to Samsung.

To me the Trade Dress issue is subjective, I have never been confused when looking at a Samsung products vs an Apple product, I have yet to mistake a Galaxy Tab with an iPad to me they looking nothing alike. But that is me.

This is kind of splitting hairs, but that's what the legal system is all about. It doesn't matter if no one ever mistakes a 7" Tab for a 10" iPad. What matters is whether the court believes that Samsung was making and marketing the Tab to be "just like an iPad".

There is more evidence when it comes to the 10" Tab. Remember that Samsung pulled the original prototype of the larger Tab after the iPad 2 was released. They made it much thinner and lighter. Again, that alone is not the issue since everyone is trying to make these products thinner & lighter. But added to all the other factors it does reveal a pattern of imitation.

The legal battles from all sides MS, Apple, Google (All Android OEM's) has done little to benefit commerce, technology or job growth. It seems all parties involved will simply continue to use the nuclear option until they are all dead.

The Big 3 you list aren't going anywhere. They've got tons of cash and are making more every day. Microsoft and Apple have long known this is part of doing business. Google is coming to that realization late and are paying through the nose as a result. The two older companies have many years of actually filing their own patents. Steve Jobs' name is on hundreds of Apple patents. That's very different from Google's recent purchase of patents from various companies.

Do not forget, Apple has zero issue with stealing ideas or concepts from other companies, Jobs has said it, Apple does it and iOS clearly shows it. Maybe Google should have patented the notification bar with slide down feature or wireless sync or some other features and then sued Apple for it.

We could ping pong claims about who stole what from whom. It'd be endless. Take a look at the WebOS notification system before saying that Google originated that. Everyone borrows ideas from others, but that doesn't mean the mechanism (hardware or software) behind the implementation are the same.

It's beyond my comprehension as to what is patentable or not. Then you've got trademarks, trade dress, copyrights and who knows what other types of IP protection systems exist. Like all legal systems, it has spiraled out of control.

 

[DrewBear]

Here are excerpts from an article that better explains what Samsung is trying to do with FRAND vs non-FRAND patents.

Samsung Aims to Muddy Waters

...it appears that Samsung is trying to sow confusion among courts world-wide over different types of patents.

At the heart of the issue are so-called standard patents, which companies contribute to international bodies and make available to other companies, generally for minimal, though reliable, royalties to make gadgets compatible with each other.

...Apple has said many of those patents were contributed by Samsung to pools of standards patents that Apple had licensed. Standards bodies require patent contributors like Samsung to license their ideas in a fair, reasonable and nondiscriminatory manner, known in intellectual-property circles as Frand.

Samsung's legal strategy appears to turn to a large degree on claiming that such standards patents haven't been sufficiently valued. Samsung's defense, to be presented at courts in nine countries, also questions whether standards patents can be used to force a competitor to give up rights stemming from more-proprietary patents, which haven't been contributed to standards pools.

Adding to the legal drama, intellectual-property attorneys say it appears that Samsung doesn't really want either question settled?because it also holds nonstandard patents?but is raising the issues to create uncertainty so Apple settles to avoid risking a ruling that devalues its innovations.

...Florian Mueller, a German consultant who runs the FOSS Patents blog about software-patent disputes, said Samsung appears to be counting on the prospect that courts in different countries will approach the Frand issue differently.

"It's all about them really not having the depth and strength to say 'Here are three or four killer patents and we'll use them and scare the daylights out of Apple.' They don't seem to have that," Mr. Mueller said. "So what they try to do with Frand and by going all around the globe is to create a minimum level of legal uncertainty for Apple in the hopes they will settle."

Samsung Aims to Muddy Waters in Apple Patent Battle - WSJ.com

 

[Timhewitt]

It still amazes me that people jump into this discussion without understanding what's actually going on and spouting their opinions, sounding like total morons in the process.

Read the background material before forming an opinion. It really would make your arguments more credible.

Samsung in this case is being entirely unreasonable, however it's likely that a Korean court will side with them anyway, blocking the sales of iPhones in South Korea. Apple will drop them as a supplier, block them with real patents in most of the rest of the world and both companies will suffer...unless they are bluffing, which is entirely possible.

Could be a simple attempt to get Apple to cut them some slack on their actual Apple patent and Trade Dress violations.

-t

 

[Raptor007]

Actually I have taken the time to read, keep up on and pay close attention to the legal battles surrounding Samsung vs Apple, Apple vs Nokia, Apple vs HTC, HTC vs Apple and so on and so on.

You know what I have noticed through all of this, every one of these companies has likely violated patents in one way or another INCLUDING apple. Yes Apple has no problem stealing and using patents with no regard and then waiting for a company to demand a cash settlement.

Apple is as guilty as any of the other companies. The courts should force all of these patents cases to be settled so the courts can actually work on real business.

 

[TomD]

Apple is making a big mistake in fanning the flames of Patent Global Thermonuclear War. The only ones winning are the lawyers. For a long time smart phone companies have amased an arsenal of patents which established Mutual Asured Destruction, if anyone sued them. Now they are starting wars they can only lose.

Apple is killing the Magic in their reputation with these lawsuits. They are following the same road that MicroSoft did when Bill Gates was in the nightly news answering questions with legal giberish non-answers. That pretty much ended the image of MicroSoft being the Kuwel place to code. Now it's image is just another soulless megacorp.

Apple will wind up being a litigate rather than inovate company. And will lose the Kuwel Factor forever.

Now the patent wars will indeed leave mutually assured destruction. What a waist!

 

[DrewBear]

Tech-heads fall into many different camps; "followers" of Linux, Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc. Those that fall into a camp are very unlikely to budge regardless of what "their" company does or doesn't do.

But the huge majority of consumers simply don't care or know about all this legal infighting. There are a bunch of factors people look at when deciding what product to buy, but a company's legal wranglings is not one of them.

This meme that Apple sells product because of a "cool factor" is overblown. My twenty-something nephews tried to accuse me of that and I just laughed at them. The thought that I and millions of middle-aged users buy Apple products in order to be cool is beyond ridiculous. It didn't take long for those nephews to see the truth in that.

I won't deny that there is a segment of the population that buy products based on a cool factor. But it's these very same superficial group of consumers that could care less about Apple's activity in the courts.

I agree that IP litigation and all sorts of other litigation (product liability, etc.) are a complete waste of a company's resources. That's the world we live in. Go find out how much your city, schools, hospitals, playgrounds, etc. spend for legal expenses. It is a waste.

I wouldn't worry about Apple losing its innovative edge. They've got a unique corporate culture that has been carefully cultivated over the past 14 yrs. by a founder who has been very aware of his mortality. He's assembled a great team of executives who are well able to keep Apple moving forward.

 

[msm0511]

The think that makes Samsung's suit bogus is that they are suing for patents that are part of FRAND, which basically means all they can do if a judge decides Apple is in violation of, Apple will have to license the tech from Samsung. It's similar to the Nokia suit. It's not that Apple wouldn't pay to use Nokia's technology, the two companies couldn't reach an agreement on price. Apple and Nokia finally settled on a price, and the suit was over. I think the same thing will happen with this part of the Samsung suit. It's different that Apple's claims against Samsung. Apple is suing over proprietary technology.

I do agree though, everyone suing everyone is getting a little out of hand. I understand protecting one's legal property, but with so many suits going on it's hard to tell the valid ones from ones that are just out for a quick buck or licensing agreement.