- 06-27-2007, 06:18 PM #51
all i asked was if you had access to their meaning marketing studies...i didn't ask for some 2nd or 3rd party marketing pieces but i do thank you for providing them.
it wasn't rushed to market. it has enough on it to sell. if it doesn't have what you want on it, ok, don't buy it. but all indications are that it has enough of what many people want given street sales estimates.
- 06-27-2007, 06:23 PM #52
As for the cut and paste. Let's think about this--if you asked 100 people walking down the street talking on a cell phone and asked them this:
How often do you cut and paste text on your phone?
Realistically, what do you think the answer would be?
Remember Jobs wants this to be a high end phone for the mass market.
- 06-27-2007, 07:11 PM #53
On a regular flip phone, there in no copy/paste because
a) no touchscreen
b) they dont' have the "full internet" on there
Reverse the question: How often to you copy/past on your PC or Mac? Send someone a link? Send a number or information? Copy directions?
I bet it's a lot and I think it's a better analogy than a regular cell phone, which the iPhone departs from dramatically. That is why all WM ppcs, Blackberry's and Symbian do it. It's a critical function when you handle information on a mobile communicator/internet device and in fact, I do it quite often.
- 06-27-2007, 07:17 PM #54
there are users that probably don't have a need to cut and paste. there are users that probably don't care to cut and paste. in treocentral there are probably not many of either type.
i am of the former, others here may be of the latter. for the former it isn't enough of a hindrance to not try out the phone, for the latter it's maybe reason not to try out the phone.
not a big deal either way. it will sell without it.
This implied that you also believe they will never add it back in (at least in the short term foreseeable future).
If that was the case I believe it would be a major mistake, and will have a market impact.
I think much more likely a more sophisticated video system is in the works that will synchronize with authoring tools on the mac. This obviously takes time.
- 06-27-2007, 07:33 PM #56
And if they add it later, what does that mean for this whole discussion? Does it validate the claim that it was rushed? Or they missed some things?
Like I said, had Palm, MS, BB or Symbian not had cut/paste, everyone would be livid and not just shrug it off, case in point: MS Smartphones which don't do that, leave people seaching for a solution.
And this is just one example by which I suggest they over-looked something. Dialing contacts doesn't seem any more futuristic either. Seems Apple gets a pass when they leave out certain features after "reinventing the phone" while other companies are condemned for the same (while being a lot more modest to boot)
Apple claims to be held to a higher standard and with their claims of redifining things, some of us hold them up to it.
- 06-27-2007, 07:42 PM #57
Where are you pasting all of this to? It's not a mobile computer.
I don't do this on my Treo now which has the ability so it's not needed and Apple was right to skip it. Isn't that how it goes in this forum?
You brought up the cut and paste issue when the MMS discussion didn't go your way, so what are your assumptions concerning cut and paste?
- 06-27-2007, 07:46 PM #58
The real question is this:
What if the iPhone is a mass seller and the public accepts it by selling out or by outselling the Treo? Will the anti-iPhone haters in the forum accept that Apple made a product the public wants and concede that point or simply ignore it and still point out it doesn't have feature "X"?
- 06-27-2007, 07:50 PM #59
A picture is worth a thousand words, but a video is worth about a million. Apple messed up on that lack of feature imo. When ppl go to events they plan ahead so of course they can carry the best camera/phone etc..so then, why not carry a REAL standalone camera w/flash while you're at it as 2 MP blows anyway for anything moving and over 15 ft away w/o goodlight? How about having a landline available too as they cost less and have the best call quality available for communication? The reason is of course, convenience and for the unplanned and unexpected. Or does your life only consist of planned events?
I recall a cellphone video clip helped apprehend a criminal on a subway in New York a year or two back..they gave a pretty good video of the crime rather than a fuzzy pic of someone in motion(as the iPhone seems to do my all reports)..go figure! How dare they have that feature!
I do pray that for the sake of the ones going to pay that $500- 600 plus service that the updates DO allow that. If it is a HARDWARE design then you're set. Thank goodness for freedom of choice...Apple seems to be going to communist way - "have it our way or not at all" !
I don't mind ppl saying they don't use video - fine your choice, but don't be condescending and assuming that everyone elses phones are crap and useless and that you can use it as an opportunity to skirt around what is an obvious flaw in a supposedly "flawless" and "perfect" product.
I think Apple were behind schedule and decided to omit certain features due to market pressure, and are planning to supply SOME of them whenever they can via these "updates"...they've had to delay Leopard and now they have that to make a deadline with it in October.
If they don't provide some of the more demanded basic features (esp video :doh and the phone remains "crippled" wrt certain things considered standard in other contemporary cellphones then it is even worse on their design team and points to the fact that it IS all about money. Whatever happens no doubt you will see the improvements in the regular 6 month cycle ...
- 06-27-2007, 07:58 PM #60
Hmm. You think I am projecting my beliefs? Get real. All of what you have stated is pure opinion. When was I condensending when multiple people in this forum state things like:
"If they don't provide some of the more demanded basic features"
when I have said all along, and rightly so, that each person need different things in a phone and requires different things. Even a survey pointed out by surur indicates that photos and video is a simply majority of the people to the people who want it. Apple is looking for 1% of the market. So, if they miss the 60% they blow everything else out of the water for sales.
If you are going to jump into the discussion about video between surur and myself at least start from the beginning. Surur stated this is a must basic feature because he uses it. I said that's your opinion. Then he stated that's because you don't have kids. I replied I do and still don't use it because I would rather have good quality rather than a small video. Under no circumstances was I projecting anything other than my opinion to show that just because one person wants or doesn't want something it is not representative of the entire market.
- 06-27-2007, 07:59 PM #61
That is, it seems the iPhone "lovers" (adopting similar language to your own) do not seem to express a single ounce of surprise when some of these basic and simple features are left out of the "5 years ahead of its time" iPhone. It's as if Apple can do no wrong.
What would happen if Palm released a device today without all of that? Would people here and potential buyers say "well no one really uses it that..."? I don't think so.
Has anyone here denied that the iPhone will sell? That people won't buy and love it (especially those coming from a normal flip phone)? I know I haven't, neither has Surur.
If you disagree, show where any of us have posited otherwise.
This is diverging from the topic here though: Did Apple rush the product to market, overlooking some simple features?
Yes or No.
If they later add them, what does that mean for your above answer?
- 06-27-2007, 08:04 PM #62
You don't have a clue. I have no intention of buying the iPhone. LOL. It doesn't fit my needs. You, however, assume I will be standing in line because I point out inconsistent arguments from people extrapolating their needs upon the entire market.
The question I asked is not a straw question. It's valid. But one the iPhone detractors will not address it because a lot of them are just seeking flame wars and thrive on it.
I answered in the beginning of the thread what I thought about the iPhone, finished or unfinished. Please go back and read the entire thread.
And yes, I do have a Treo, several of them. And yes, they have features missing which I considered basic. No one product answers all your dreams because: EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS.
- 06-27-2007, 08:06 PM #63
For anyone who may not have seen this, here's Pogue's review which has some sample photos:
Several of them look pretty standard for a camera phone (i.e, they kinda suck), but there are a couple of really good ones. The last photo, in particular (the one of the little boy with a red shirt), looks really, really good and puts my Treo 700p's stinky camera to shame.
FWIW, I very rarely use my 700p's camera or video recording capabilities because they suck so very bad. I have used them on certain occasions when I didn't have anything better on hand and wanted to capture a moment (usually of my daughter). It saddens me that the quality was so poor that the end result really isn't worth saving long-term, IMO. I am not one who cares about megapixels. I'm perfectly happy with 1.3MP if the quality is good. Some of the early (as in several years ago) Kodak and Canon digicams that were "only" 1.3MP took far better photos than modern-day 2MP+ camera phones, and it makes me mad just thinking about it.
- 06-27-2007, 08:06 PM #64
- 06-27-2007, 08:17 PM #65
No one here denies that the iPhone will sell big-time, make money, be a success and have lots of happy people. No one.
But that is not the focus of this thread. If you want to really know, start a thread and throw up a poll--no one says you can't.
I guess I don't see the relevance of "EACH PERSON IS DIFFERENT AND HAS DIFFERENT NEEDS.". That much is obvious, but like I said...none of the iPhone "lovers" seemed a bit shocked that these things were not included. It's just excuse after excuse. Let Apple define what you do and don't need, end of story.
This has nothing to do with "hating Apple" as we could be talking about any smartphone in the year 2007 and I'd say the same thing e.g. does the Mogul have GPS or not? Why not? No different.
- 06-27-2007, 08:25 PM #66
The real question is was the iPhone released with the specs Apple intended it to be? My opinion, which I stated before, is yes. If you look closely at what Jobs is saying about the target market, not the hype, you can see he released the iPhone as a high end phone. Not a business device, not a PDA, but a unique combo of the iPod and a high end phone. Based upon that it isn't unfinished.
Now is Apple going to expand the software later? Absolutely. That's why it is running OSX. That lends itself to ease of expansion. But is the phone being released too early? Nope.
As for the iPhone lovers and haters. Both sides are ignorant to a degree. Taking an absolute position and ignoring rational arguments always lends itself to that. I think it is absurd that simply because a product is being released it doesn't need to be trashed as some are doing.
- 06-27-2007, 08:31 PM #67
I can say at Sprintusers, for every device released these same discussions occur, though on a smaller scale.
All I'm saying about the unfinished issue is the obvious and non-controversial position: every smartphone is unfinished and if you ask the company/developers, they all want more time to perfect it before release. But due outside constraints, they are forced to "lock" the device and feature-set at stage "X" and have to put of Y and Z till later.
Some of us, namely myself, are just surprised at some of those features left out, that's all.
- 06-27-2007, 09:47 PM #68
- 06-27-2007, 10:26 PM #69
I'm sure ppl will take many pics more than they'll take vids when they have a camera phone capable of both...but if you take even one vid for every 100 pics you take then having the choice was worth it I think. I have a 5 MP camera and half the time I have to retake pics on that due to not liking them...I don't even consider using a cameraphone for similar purposes much less printing them.
In the same way video quality isn't an issue (i.e. i don't take vids with my camera to watch them on TV) and it's why i can enjoy my treo 680 - it increases the FUN and for a phone that is supposed to be FUN (in addition to functional) the iPhone left off a very fun feature imo.
- 06-27-2007, 10:41 PM #70
- 06-27-2007, 10:49 PM #71
- 06-27-2007, 10:54 PM #72
- 06-27-2007, 10:56 PM #73
- 06-27-2007, 11:03 PM #74
But when lookng at offerings overseas, we can see how behind we are. Truth be told, the iPhone is actually late to the music phone game(of course you know that). The only real advantage is the huge video viewing screen, but now what kind of video will it take? If it's restricted to iTunes DRM and/or format video, another restriction that makes it less user friendly.
- 06-27-2007, 11:09 PM #75
look at how many Treos i have gone through. they just didn't work for me, that doesn't mean that they won't work for you. the arguement i have is when someone says they like the Treo because of its phone, email, and internet offerings. for those things out of the box, i can't understand why one would want to carry around what many around here consider an unstable, brick.