IPhone, the Final Treo Killer

[whmurray]

This is just Soooo funny. No one has a clue as to whether the iPhone will work as advertised. In fact, we don't really know what it will be advertised to do in 6, or 8, or 10 months from now when it finally is finished, debugged, and has FCC approval. But you're all ready to buy one anyway.

For what it's worth, my Treo's pretty much do just what they claim to do, and just what I need them to do. Are they perfect? Of course not. Will the iPhone be perfect? I very much doubt it. Do any of us know how good the iPhone will be? Absolutely not.

We have a clue. The name of the clue is Apple. Macs work as advertised. iPods work as advertised. iTunes works as advertised. That is a clue. WM works as expected. Too bad it was not built by those that built iTunes.

 

[specimen38]

cglaguna,

Great thread! -- thanks for all you help 2 yrs ago.

I don't think the iPhone will kill the Treo. I think Palm will have to forge a much deeper alliance w/ Microsoft. This alliance might be the death nail in the Palm coffin. I smell a take over by Microsoft. Microsoft needs customers in this space. Palm could give Microsoft instant customers with a take over.

 

[whmurray]

cglaguna,

Great thread! -- thanks for all you help 2 yrs ago.

I don't think the iPhone will kill the Treo. I think Palm will have to forge a much deeper alliance w/ Microsoft. This alliance might be the death nail in the Palm coffin. I smell a take over by Microsoft. Microsoft needs customers in this space. Palm could give Microsoft instant customers with a take over.

If one needs any other motivation to move to Apple, that should do it.

 

[whmurray]

cglaguna,

Great thread! -- thanks for all you help 2 yrs ago.

I don't think the iPhone will kill the Treo. I think Palm will have to forge a much deeper alliance w/ Microsoft. This alliance might be the death nail in the Palm coffin. I smell a take over by Microsoft. Microsoft needs customers in this space. Palm could give Microsoft instant customers with a take over.

Sounds like death to me.

 

[Mtreosexual]

Even if it does not kill . It has definitely ignited fire under the Palm executive's ..( You know what , i mean ) big time.
Competition is healthy for consumers. Palm has no excuse in selling old technology and saying this the best that can be done , take it or leave it . Most of the time we would bend down and buy. No more of that nonsense.
They have to come out with a competeing product soon, or they are dead.

 

[whmurray]

Even if it does not kill . It has definitely ignited fire under the Palm executive's ..( You know what , i mean ) big time........

Is this a speculation on your part or can you cite evidence? The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.

Handspring really is dead; Palm killed it. The last innovation in the product line, the Treo 600, took place under Handspring management. Palm has shipped only a few variations on this basic design.

I have been a Palm customer since the Palm III. I have been a Handspring customer since the Visor. I have purchased no fewer than 8 POS products. Since I have purchased POS products from at least three corporate entities and one or two distributors, I suppose it is fair to say that my loyalty is to POS rather than Palm.

While I did buy a 650 and while I am now happy with it, it was a very difficult upgrade. While it fixed a few 600 limitations, it introduced a number of problems of its own. While Palm has fixed the most egregious problems with the 650, it has announced no products since the 600 that I have caught my imagination.

While I can no longer say that I wish Palm well, I do not wish them ill. However, I have lost hope and can identify no hopeful scenarios.

I think that it is a little much to hope that a new product that, no matter how innovative, Palm does not see as competition, can inject creativity where there is none. While I believe that competition is powerful and that the market is as close to magic as we have, there are limits to what they can do.

 

[Malatesta]

The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.

Slightly OT but not...

What Ed Colligan really said in response to the question was:

The question didn't actually focus on Apple. Colligan was asked about all of the new competitors who might be entering the market: Apple, Google talking about free phones and hiring Andy Rubin of Danger, and so on. "The phone market could look intensely crowded."

Colligan's response: "It's also intensely big, we just have to get our fair share." "Let me tell you this, it's not as easy as it looks." He cited the Motorola Q as an example -- it was supposed to take over the world but didn't. "I just would caution people that think they're going to walk in here and do these.... I don't think it'll be so easy as everybody thinks. It's a tough space...I'm not trying to be cocky about it. It is a tough business. We've really struggled through that." "We struggled for years figuring out how to make a decent phone."

source

(I'm just tired of the "ed colligan laughed off the iPhone" meme)

 

[TazUk]

Macs work as advertised.

Yep they never, ever go wrong

iPods work as advertised.

And they've never had any issues with build quality or battery life

And no I don't have a problem with Apple or hate any of their products it's just some people seem to look at them through rose coloured spectacles

 

[Iceman6]

The Treo is a great email/SMS messaging device. The iPhone is an iPod with a built-in phone. iPhone is not going to kill Treo, it's just going to limit its growth. iPhone is a Sony Walkman phone killer.

 

[CGK#IM]

"We struggled for years figuring out how to make a decent phone."

is the more truthful version of that - "we bought in a good design and have just coasted with it since - the biggest innovation has been running someone's else's OS on the device - an OS we expect to account for the majority of our sales in the near future".

 

[cjdaniel]

Microsoft Take Over

Palm has fixed the issues with WM, WM5 is looking more like Palm. If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.

I am not sure I would not welcome a Microsoft takeover, and I don't consider that the death of Palm.

I would never have considered a WM phone before, but with Secret Sauce the 750 is looking really good to me.

I have been a staunch POS supporter, but consider the seamless integration possible with a hot new phone and WM6/Vista...

If they could get the hardware right, that would do the same thing to iphone that Pc's have been doing to Mac's for years.

I would only hope for an innovative team at MS that is exclusively focused on phones...

 

[specimen38]

WH & Mtreo,

I think we are saying the same thing in some respects. A Tsunami has struck and the waves will hit shore in June when the iPhone is release. Palm can either sink (=die), swim (=go it alone) or jump on life preserver (=Microsoft).

I think WH's analysis of swim from the original HandSpring innovation to Palm's incremental modifications over the past 4-5 years is a great point. The poor guys over at Palm have been conservative and trying to keep their customers happy by not innovating on what we all agreed is a great form factor. Unfortunately, they had everything to lose if they changed the form factor and the success formula of the software integrated with it. I simply swimming alone by Palm will result in sinking.

Mtreo, I think your point about competition is fitting for this moment in Palm's history. It is healthy, but they can't ever do any of the old stuff ever again. Not the software or the form factor. It's a new day!

There are a lot of closed minded persons posting, who think Apple is a second rate company. What many don't know is that a quiet transition has occured and we are in the Post-PC era. Those who criticize the iPod and now the iPhone have lived in the components world of electronics in lifestyle integration, but that way of doing business will gradually be dimished, but will not completely go away. Read - End to End versus Components Approach

The pundits ask, "what about 3rd party developers and the iPhone?" The old components approach is dependent on 3rd parties to write software that you have to continually upgrade when the OS upgrades while no one takes responsibility when things don't work together. The end to end approach increases the liklihood working software by providing a suite of base (killer app) products that work before a device is sold. I am certain Apple will invite the 3rd party developers into the "party" at an appropriate time when it can be certain bugs can be isolated in on a stable OS and reduced to a minimal, which makes the customer experience so much better.

Big picture = iPhone is here to stay and each new iteration of its design will introduce revolutionary advances -- just as we saw with the iPod. Every power, consumer and casual user has something wonderful to look forward to.

Even if it does not kill . It has definitely ignited fire under the Palm executive's ..( You know what , i mean ) big time.
Competition is healthy for consumers. Palm has no excuse in selling old technology and saying this the best that can be done , take it or leave it . Most of the time we would bend down and buy. No more of that nonsense.
They have to come out with a competeing product soon, or they are dead.

Is this a speculation on your part or can you cite evidence? The remarks attributed to EC would suggest to me that he has simply dismissed it. Admittedly, he has been silent since the announcement.

Handspring really is dead; Palm killed it. The last innovation in the product line, the Treo 600, took place under Handspring management. Palm has shipped only a few variations on this basic design.

I have been a Palm customer since the Palm III. I have been a Handspring customer since the Visor. I have purchased no fewer than 8 POS products. Since I have purchased POS products from at least three corporate entities and one or two distributors, I suppose it is fair to say that my loyalty is to POS rather than Palm.

While I did buy a 650 and while I am now happy with it, it was a very difficult upgrade. While it fixed a few 600 limitations, it introduced a number of problems of its own. While Palm has fixed the most egregious problems with the 650, it has announced no products since the 600 that I have caught my imagination.

While I can no longer say that I wish Palm well, I do not wish them ill. However, I have lost hope and can identify no hopeful scenarios.

I think that it is a little much to hope that a new product that, no matter how innovative, Palm does not see as competition, can inject creativity where there is none. While I believe that competition is powerful and that the market is as close to magic as we have, there are limits to what they can do.

 

[specimen38]

Yes, precisely!!!!!!!

Palm has fixed the issues with WM, WM5 is looking more like Palm. If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.

I am not sure I would not welcome a Microsoft takeover, and I don't consider that the death of Palm.

I would never have considered a WM phone before, but with Secret Sauce the 750 is looking really good to me.

I have been a staunch POS supporter, but consider the seamless integration possible with a hot new phone and WM6/Vista...

If they could get the hardware right, that would do the same thing to iphone that Pc's have been doing to Mac's for years.

I would only hope for an innovative team at MS that is exclusively focused on phones...

 

[robkz]

Here is my .02. IPhone will market their product better than palm has with the treo. But the product itself does not appear to innovate in any way short of the concept of having a very large screen and absolutely no buttons. I see the value in a great screen. That is clearly what is missing with our palm. For us in the know, having wifi on a device that has hi speed access to the internet and the possibility of an unlimited data plan means almost nothing. We have a unit that is an MP3 player, works behind firewalls and syncs with email servers, handles pop email flawlessly, has a decent little camera, handles push email, text messaging, instant messaging, allows you to stream video and xm radio, can be used as a gps navigation unit with the right software, uses the infared functionality to apparently help realtors in some way or control my remote control. Also, you can tap into your computer at the office with a vpn thing and look at your screen, open files on that computer and review them if necessary. Bottom line, this treo works in some amazing ways and if it were to come out today for the first time in its current form, it would be the absolute end of the iphone (assuming the two companies changed lifespans here and apple was making iphones for as long as palm has with the treo). I admit...the screen looked beautiful and i want that. But just imagine holding it up to your ear and getting that face grease all over it. Nasty and frankly not a great fit.

My guess is Apple hits a homerun in terms of sales in the first 6 months with this unit. But to innovate is to do more than introduce a bigger screen and the same things that exist now in our phone minus a bunch of stuff. the lack of open source software will be a big problem long term.

 

[Malatesta]

If only MS would get the resolution up on the phone, we would almost be there.

Small point of contention: Wm5 can definitely do 480x480 and 640x480 resolutions (VGA) in fact there are handful of devices out there that already do this.

Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens for two reasons (actually one): cost

1) 480x480 screens are just more expensive
2) they wanted to keep the hardware the same between the 700P/700w(x) to keep manufacturing costs down--which incidentally resulted in issues for the 700p (see memory)

also

3) battery life since more juice would be needed

So that possibility exists today but it is up to device manufactures to opt for it.

 

[marcol]

Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens for two reasons (actually one): cost

1) 480x480 screens are just more expensive
2) they wanted to keep the hardware the same between the 700P/700w(x) to keep manufacturing costs down--which incidentally resulted in issues for the 700p (see memory)

No. 700p: 320x320. 700w(x): 240x240. They have different screens.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700p/specs.html
http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/specs.html

 

[whmurray]

Yep they never, ever go wrong



And they've never had any issues with build quality or battery life

And no I don't have a problem with Apple or hate any of their products it's just some people seem to look at them through rose coloured spectacles

You forgot to mention iTunes.

I recently had to rebuild a PC. Every application had an issue. I was particularly concerned about iTunes/iPod, in part because of DRM, in part, because I am a PC person and never found iTunes very intuitive.

In this experience I learned that my problem was that I kept looking for the manual controls to do what iTunes planned to automagically in any case. When I first re-installed the software from the CD, nothing looked as I expected. Not only did I not see my music, podcasts, and audiobooks on the PC but they mysteriously disappeared from my iPod. In my panic, I probably did all kinds of things to make the problem worse. Finally, I simply gave up.

Then a miracle happened. Slowly the system began to heal itself. It began to report that, not only were things not as I expected them, but not as it expected them. It would offer remedies, most of which I could not interpret. As my trust grew, I simply responded "yes" to its offers. Miracle of miracles, both my PC and my iPod slowly returned to their normal state.

In spite of all my inept attempts to control it, it never locked up or lost anything.

I now appreciate the observation that iTunes is the best piece of software ever built for MS Windows (Well, Quicken is pretty good too). I now appreciate the reports of converts to the Mac about how much more stable it is than Windows. I look forward to having a phone that does not lock up, spontaneously reset, or go into a "boot loop." I look forward to having a phone that does not require third-party software to bring its essential functions and apps to minimum acceptable standards.

Do not get me wrong; I understand the trade-offs. I will probably keep my Treo for the applications that may never appear on the iPhone. Fortunately, I can move my Cingular/AT&T SIM from one phone to the other.

 

[Malatesta]

No. 700p: 320x320. 700w(x): 240x240. They have different screens.

http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700p/specs.html
http://www.palm.com/us/products/smartphones/treo700w/specs.html

Did you read my post? I know what the 700wx is as I own one

The post was about WM5: it can do 480x480 and 640x480. That is a fact.

The treo 700w(x) does not do that because of reasons 1-3 that I posted not due to a limitation on WM5 itself. I even wrote:

Palm probably decided against using 480x480 screens...

Please read more carefully.

 

[specimen38]

......But the product itself does not appear to innovate in any way short of the concept of having a very large screen and absolutely no buttons.

Robkz, with all due respect, may I point out the following innovations in addition to the two innovations you pointed out:

Innovation #3 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce "visual voicemail."

Innovation #4 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce multi-touch on a touchscreen aka "point and pinch touchscreen."

Innovation #5 - iPhone is first cell device in history to introduce a full scale browser which displays a full page (not a scaled down wap page).

Innovation #6 - iPhone is first cell device in history to employ widgets as applications.

Innovation #7 - iPhone is first cell device implement 3 sensors. A proximity sensors to protect the phone while you are talking by determining how close your face is to the phone. A sensor for ambient light and a sensor that determines when the phone is view either landscape or portrait. Frankly, I can't think of another phone that uses sensors at all, but perhaps you can. That alone would be Innovation #8.

How about some non-innovations that we Treo users would love to have?

1) WIFI
2) 4 or 8 Gigabytes Memory
3) iPod (and cover flow technology to view our music)
4) MacOS X (i.e. multi-threaded/multi-tasking operating system)
5) Ability to browse internet while talking on the phone (really important to me on a personal level)
6) Better volume on calls
7) Ability to sync a Macintosh or PC iTunes, Address book and files

 

[specimen38]

Non-Innovations

Putting aside the innovations mentioned in the post above, I would be willing to part with my Treo 650 simply on the basis of the non-innovations Apple has put into the iPhone.

Agree or Disagree? What do you all think?

1) WIFI
2) 4 or 8 Gigabytes Memory
3) iPod (and cover flow technology to view our music)
4) MacOS X (i.e. multi-threaded/multi-tasking operating system)
5) Ability to browse internet while talking on the phone (really important to me on a personal level)
6) Better volume on calls
7) Ability to sync a Macintosh or PC iTunes, Address book and files