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  1. #101  
    FFR
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by mzengr View Post
    You all definitely have a lot to say...


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    Usually people judge the quality of what is said.

    I'm just sayin....
  2. #102  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    I only have time for a very quick reply, and I can't cover all of your many points, but here goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Correcting you.
    you were discussing only one merit, raw processing power and how 64 bit processors are useless without 4gb.
    I did not claim that 64 bit processors are useless without 4GB of memory. Please read my post #78. I am discussing whether *64 bit* processing is an advantage in a smart phone today - if you like, raw processing power.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    [Lots of stuff about AMD and registers.]
    Really, really embarrassing for you when someone actually knows what they are talking about, its not just theoretical for me.

    Apple also added some new cryptographic instructions for hardware acceleration of AES and SHA1/SHA256 algorithms with the a7 that increases performance.

    I lost count at how many ways apple increased performance going from a6 to a7, you can count it if you like but it is much more than the memory
    What other points did you make?
    I have stated many times that the A7 is a very powerful device. The increase in registers and the special instructions are amongst the reasons for that. But that's not specific to 64 bit processing! My point is that *64 bit processing* does not in itself bring big advantages for a mobile phone today. Other improvements in the ARM core make much more difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    I see so the only reason it is powerful to you, is because of its screen.
    hahaahhaaahaaahha credibilty, lost. Please go on.
    you made my day. Thank you.
    I have no idea what your point is here. I was discussing your claim that the iPhone 5S is the most powerful device (from some selection I don't remember) by volume. I was pointing out that it's small screen size compared to Android and WP phones gives it an advantage here. I was poking fun at your measure of computing power per unit of volume. Whether smaller or larger screens are better is a discussion for another thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Its very telling you don't see battery efficiency and the power to volume ratio of the iPhone as a benefit and direct result of the a7.
    Where did I say that? Again, I was discussing *64 bit processing*, not the A7 in general and not battery efficiency. I think your obsession with power to volume ratios is a little odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Ahh cost is the issue. I understand now. .
    I said costs because I don't like the word disbenefits. If you didn't get that, then I apologise. My point is that for some computing operations will take longer on a 64 bit processor than an otherwise identical 32 bit one because data and code size will increase. It's a theoretical point - probably the A7 will do them faster than an A6 because it's a much more powerful device.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    So if you don't know, why spread misinformation and fud?

    I know, it is more powerful than the rest.
    What misinformation and FUD was I spreading. Please quote the exact words because I want to correct any points I made which were not true, and apologise to the readers here.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    [Some stuff about comparing the A7 with other state of the art mobile SoCs]
    I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, or which of my points you disagree with.
    You say the A7 is a very powerful device. I agree.
    You say it is the most powerful device available. That may be true, but personally I haven't seen numbers testing the A7 and the best from Qualcomm, MediaTek, NVidia, etc running the same code so I can't judge.
    You say the 5S is the most powerful smart phone per unit volume. I agree that is probably true, but point out that its small screen size gives it an advantage. It's also not a measure I have come across before, but if it's one you want to use to prove whatever point you are trying to make, then fine.
    You keep mentioning the 64 bit aspect of the A7 chip. I point out (again) that 64 bits *in itself* doesn't bring big advantages yet. You make a lot of points that are not related to that and then claim I am wrong.
    You make various other claims that I don't have time to discuss.

    Maybe you could clarify exactly what point you are trying to make?
  3. #103  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Amd's 64 bit x86 came with an extension of the old isa, whereas apple has introduced two entirely new concurrent ISA's called A32 and A64, both ISAs can be supported by a single microprocessor design featuring two architectural states, the AArch32 and AArch64, one of the greatest benefits of the cyclone.

    I keep mentioning apples 64bit ecosystem because all first party apps on iPhone 5s are already compiled for AArch64, I only mention this because at boot the iPhone 5s does not have a single AArch32 process running; in other words the 5s already runs a native 64 bit environment and its only going to get better with iOS 8 and metal. This is truly apple's 64bit vertically integrated advantage that no other company can offer, not google, not Microsoft, not even Qualcomm.

    What about general purpose registrars?

    In regards to raw processing power, AMD's doubling of the register space showed a 10% increase in performance, thats not nothing or minimal, the difference offcource between x86 and the cyclone are the entirely new ISAs, so in layman terms x86<a7.

    ARMv7 had 15 general purpose registers compared to 31 that are each 64-bits wide for the cyclone. Because all 31 registers are accessible at all times, this decreases register pressure and directly impacts performance.

    Really, really embarrassing for you when someone actually knows what they are talking about, its not just theoretical for me.
    Some of the text of your post is surprisingly similar to this review of the iPhone 5S - . I Googled a random phrase from your post and that page was the top hit.

    Would you care to explain?
  4. #104  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    However, I do believe that the last paragraph I quoted was all your own work.
  5. #105  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by anony_mouse View Post
    I only have time for a very quick reply, and I can't cover all of your many points, but here goes...



    I did not claim that 64 bit processors are useless without 4GB of memory. Please read my post #78. I am discussing whether *64 bit* processing is an advantage in a smart phone today - if you like, raw processing power.



    I have stated many times that the A7 is a very powerful device. The increase in registers and the special instructions are amongst the reasons for that. But that's not specific to 64 bit processing! My point is that *64 bit processing* does not in itself bring big advantages for a mobile phone today. Other improvements in the ARM core make much more difference.



    I have no idea what your point is here. I was discussing your claim that the iPhone 5S is the most powerful device (from some selection I don't remember) by volume. I was pointing out that it's small screen size compared to Android and WP phones gives it an advantage here. I was poking fun at your measure of computing power per unit of volume. Whether smaller or larger screens are better is a discussion for another thread.




    Where did I say that? Again, I was discussing *64 bit processing*, not the A7 in general and not battery efficiency. I think your obsession with power to volume ratios is a little odd.



    I said costs because I don't like the word disbenefits. If you didn't get that, then I apologise. My point is that for some computing operations will take longer on a 64 bit processor than an otherwise identical 32 bit one because data and code size will increase. It's a theoretical point - probably the A7 will do them faster than an A6 because it's a much more powerful device.



    What misinformation and FUD was I spreading. Please quote the exact words because I want to correct any points I made which were not true, and apologise to the readers here.



    I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, or which of my points you disagree with.
    You say the A7 is a very powerful device. I agree.
    You say it is the most powerful device available. That may be true, but personally I haven't seen numbers testing the A7 and the best from Qualcomm, MediaTek, NVidia, etc running the same code so I can't judge.
    You say the 5S is the most powerful smart phone per unit volume. I agree that is probably true, but point out that its small screen size gives it an advantage. It's also not a measure I have come across before, but if it's one you want to use to prove whatever point you are trying to make, then fine.
    You keep mentioning the 64 bit aspect of the A7 chip. I point out (again) that 64 bits *in itself* doesn't bring big advantages yet. You make a lot of points that are not related to that and then claim I am wrong.
    You make various other claims that I don't have time to discuss.

    Maybe you could clarify exactly what point you are trying to make?
    Soooo glad for your "very quick reply."


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  6. #106  
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    Default Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by anony_mouse View Post
    I only have time for a very quick reply, and I can't cover all of your many points, but here goes...



    I did not claim that 64 bit processors are useless without 4GB of memory. Please read my post #78. I am discussing whether *64 bit* processing is an advantage in a smart phone today - if you like, raw processing power.



    I have stated many times that the A7 is a very powerful device. The increase in registers and the special instructions are amongst the reasons for that. But that's not specific to 64 bit processing! My point is that *64 bit processing* does not in itself bring big advantages for a mobile phone today. Other improvements in the ARM core make much more difference.



    I have no idea what your point is here. I was discussing your claim that the iPhone 5S is the most powerful device (from some selection I don't remember) by volume. I was pointing out that it's small screen size compared to Android and WP phones gives it an advantage here. I was poking fun at your measure of computing power per unit of volume. Whether smaller or larger screens are better is a discussion for another thread.




    Where did I say that? Again, I was discussing *64 bit processing*, not the A7 in general and not battery efficiency. I think your obsession with power to volume ratios is a little odd.



    I said costs because I don't like the word disbenefits. If you didn't get that, then I apologise. My point is that for some computing operations will take longer on a 64 bit processor than an otherwise identical 32 bit one because data and code size will increase. It's a theoretical point - probably the A7 will do them faster than an A6 because it's a much more powerful device.



    What misinformation and FUD was I spreading. Please quote the exact words because I want to correct any points I made which were not true, and apologise to the readers here.



    I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, or which of my points you disagree with.
    You say the A7 is a very powerful device. I agree.
    You say it is the most powerful device available. That may be true, but personally I haven't seen numbers testing the A7 and the best from Qualcomm, MediaTek, NVidia, etc running the same code so I can't judge.
    You say the 5S is the most powerful smart phone per unit volume. I agree that is probably true, but point out that its small screen size gives it an advantage. It's also not a measure I have come across before, but if it's one you want to use to prove whatever point you are trying to make, then fine.
    You keep mentioning the 64 bit aspect of the A7 chip. I point out (again) that 64 bits *in itself* doesn't bring big advantages yet. You make a lot of points that are not related to that and then claim I am wrong.
    You make various other claims that I don't have time to discuss.

    Maybe you could clarify exactly what point you are trying to make?
    Heck, if that's a quick reply, I don't want to know what a long reply is!
    Last edited by the_tech_eater; 08-08-2014 at 05:53 PM.
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  7. #107  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    I can and do make the claim because I have more knowelge than you.
    Honestly, I wish you did have more "knowledge" than me. It'd make having this conversation more useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Correcting you.
    you were discussing only one merit, raw processing power and how 64 bit processors are useless without 4gb.
    You were talking about A and B. That's only one thing. Isn't it a bit silly to tell someone they're only talking about one thing and then list two? Or, do you honestly believe addressability and raw processing are the same thing? Either way, you shouldn't make this claim while telling someone you're correcting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    In regards to 64 bit from a memory Addressibility standpoint, Apple won't have to do anything until iOS 9 at the earliest.
    I'm not sure what point you're hoping to make here. Would it make sense to invest in infrastructure that would allow for a trillion different phone numbers in the US when we don't expect to reach that anytime soon? Nobody said it won't ever happen. We've pointed out that fixing the memory now at a point where you're not seeing the strongest benefit from 64-bit processing is an odd decision and makes how heavily Apple has presented the "64-bit" terms purely a marketing gimmick.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    I keep mentioning apples 64bit ecosystem because all first party apps on iPhone 5s are already compiled for AArch64, I only mention this because at boot the iPhone 5s does not have a single AArch32 process running; in other words the 5s already runs a native 64 bit environment and its only going to get better with iOS 8 and metal. This is truly apple's 64bit vertically integrated advantage that no other company can offer, not google, not Microsoft, not even Qualcomm.
    You mention it because you've listened to the pitch. Compiling a 32-bit program into 64-bit doesn't mean the program is now more efficient. Do you understand what it is about a 64-bit architecture that increases computability? In some cases, this allows for faster, pipelined, computations. In other cases, there's literally no change. You keep mentioning it because you're making in inaccurate assumption. Pointing out they went to 64-bit is like pointing out you can look away from the Galaxy and your video stops playing. That alone doesn't offer much in terms of value. It's not just compiling the program. It's redesigning the programs in ways that take advantage of the expanded address size. As much as we'd like, this isn't always possible. Some instructions just HAVE to take place before others. When this is true, you lose the ability to pipeline calculations as you'd like to do with the larger addresses.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    In regards to raw processing power, AMD's doubling of the register space showed a 10% increase in performance, thats not nothing or minimal, the difference offcource between x86 and the cyclone are the entirely new ISAs, so in layman terms x86<a7.
    Doubling the register space is something separate from raw processing power. I'm not sure why you'd say this is in regards to the power when you're attempting to claim you're the superior mind on this topic. "Of course," someone that understands computer architecture knows you make decisions about where to split bits. You can have 32 registers with a 32-bit processor. This isn't something that's natural to 64-bit. All 64-bit processors won't be fixed to an exact number of registers. You've missed the entire point.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Really, really embarrassing for you when someone actually knows what they are talking about, its not just theoretical for me.
    I'm looking forward to someone that has an understanding of computer architecture to have a dissenting opinion. When they do, it'll make for a worthwhile conversation rather than an embarrassing one. It must be embarrassing for you to continue to insult others when your long rants don't make the point you'd like for them to make. It clearly is just theory for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Apple also added some new cryptographic instructions for hardware acceleration of AES and SHA1/SHA256 algorithms with the a7 that increases performance.
    Again, this isn't something inherent to the processor being 64-bit. This could be done with a 32-bit architecture as well. You are aware all processors, even 8-bit, have instructions. Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    I lost count at how many ways apple increased performance going from a6 to a7, you can count it if you like but it is much more than the memory
    What other points did you make?
    You've made a lot of those points. You're correct. But, that's a pointless argument. Nobody claimed the A7 isn't an improvement over the A6. If that's the point you're trying to argue, that explains why the points you've made are asinine in the context of the arguments you're attempting to counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    Its very telling you don't see battery efficiency and the power to volume ratio of the iPhone as a benefit and direct result of the a7.
    "It's" very telling that you failed to understand what he said. He didn't say it wasn't a benefit. He didn't say the A7 didn't have a role in that. He said it's a strange metric. If you expanded the phone to have twice the screen size and kept the A7 and battery as is, you'd have shorter battery life. Would this mean the A7 is a weaker processor than the A7? Of course not. As a result, it's a very strange metric to use. It's very telling to your understanding of processors that you believe it's a valuable metric.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    no it will get slower with iOS 9.
    apple usually supports products for three years, some like the 4s are still supported.
    You're confusing supported with the idea that a device won't operate any slower. Apple supporting the devices doesn't mean the newer iOS has the same amount of processing required as prior versions. If they require more processing, the older device will handle the tasks slower. If there are more processes going on, the older device will have to split attention to accomplish all of them and you'll have a slower device. This is true even with Apple providing the update. Your "proof" doesn't match the idea you're discussing, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFR View Post
    The only futility here is anyone discrediting the merits of apples 64 bit vertically integrated advantage.

    Good Day
    The futility exists with sharing buzzwords and failing to understand what you're reading. Before you reply, read through this a few times. Hopefully after that, you'll either realize how crazy most of what you've been saying is or you'll bring back points that are actually make sense if you're debating the points I'm making. Good luck with that.
  8. #108  
    natasftw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H A W K View Post
    Ok the topic is irrelevant... My point was let's stop the arguing and move on to doing what the forum is for. Helping people and getting along.


    Sent from my iPhone using iMore Forums
    We're not a support forum. We're a discussion forum. If you're looking purely for support related issues, you should be calling Apple. Again, I don't see anyone here as not getting along. I'm sorry you don't see it as being possible for people that get along to disagree. That's your issue. I hope you can work through it.
  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Les74 View Post
    Soooo glad for your "very quick reply."


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    Fair point. :-)
  10. #110  

    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Friendly reminder folks.........

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  11. #111  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    We're not a support forum. We're a discussion forum. If you're looking purely for support related issues, you should be calling Apple. Again, I don't see anyone here as not getting along. I'm sorry you don't see it as being possible for people that get along to disagree. That's your issue. I hope you can work through it.
    We do provide support here as well as troubleshooting, as is shown with our Ask a Question section.
    Wrote pretty much every single word while listening to iRon Maiden
  12. #112  
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    Default Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    We're not a support forum. We're a discussion forum. If you're looking purely for support related issues, you should be calling Apple. Again, I don't see anyone here as not getting along. I'm sorry you don't see it as being possible for people that get along to disagree. That's your issue. I hope you can work through it.
    Have a nice Day man. Obviously what I was trying to say was by passed.


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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedygi View Post
    We do provide support here as well as troubleshooting, as is shown with our Ask a Question section.
    Yes, we do. We provide support as a subset of the discussions that take place here. This can be shown by looking through the topics to see a large number of them aren't support. He claimed the purpose of the forums is to provide support. As a moderator, do you close all non-support related threads? If not, you'd agree the purpose of the forums isn't solely support.
  14. #114  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    Yes, we do. We provide support as a subset of the discussions that take place here. This can be shown by looking through the topics to see a large number of them aren't support. He claimed the purpose of the forums is to provide support. As a moderator, do you close all non-support related threads? If not, you'd agree the purpose of the forums isn't solely support.
    Okay, I see what you are saying.

    I think it's okay for people to assume this is as much a support forum as it is a discussion forum.


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  15. #115  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedygi View Post
    Okay, I see what you are saying.

    I think it's okay for people to assume this is as much a support forum as it is a discussion forum.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    I can see why people seek forums for support. The hours are better and often answers are found quicker. I don't see any issue with that. It's just silly when someone keeps posting to complain that the current discussion isn't support related when the forums aren't solely for support. That's the only reason I pointed out the distinction. It wasn't suggesting we eliminate support threads. It was suggesting that we don't try to turn everything into a support issue.

    Most of my posts take place in the jailbreak forums where the vast majority of posts are looking for help and/or information.
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  16. #116  
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    Quote Originally Posted by natasftw View Post
    I can see why people seek forums for support. The hours are better and often answers are found quicker. I don't see any issue with that. It's just silly when someone keeps posting to complain that the current discussion isn't support related when the forums aren't solely for support. That's the only reason I pointed out the distinction. It wasn't suggesting we eliminate support threads. It was suggesting that we don't try to turn everything into a support issue.

    Most of my posts take place in the jailbreak forums where the vast majority of posts are looking for help and/or information.
    Okay, duly noted.
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  17. #117  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    bull ****,still IOS is better
  18. #118  
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    Default Re: Sorry iOS, I'm switching to Android

    IMO I don't care if others want to switch to android. Good luck and enjoy. I'm not going to debate why I feel iOS is better. It's my personal preference.


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