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  1. Thread AuthorThread Author   #1  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Angry ENOUGH!!!

    So, after getting my iPad air, Apple, for whatever reason, decided that my Apple ID password was not strong enough. I've never been hacked or anything, but whatever.
    Today I tried to buy music from iTunes.
    Got prompted for my password.
    It refused my entry. (and no, I did not type the wrong one) After 2 attempts, it locked me out of my system.
    I called Apple support.
    Got asked about my security questions, but since those were set up eons ago and I only remembered 1 out of 2, I was asked to give my devices serial numbers to "confirm my identity", which I did. But then they decided they couldn't send me a reset link for 24 hours. "For my own safety", you see.

    And now a 2 minute music purchase is turning into a 24 hour headache.
    I find it ludicrous and asinine that Apple would go through such lengths to protect me from myself while providing the NSA with a wide open back door to access any data they want, without my consent or my knowledge.

    So I got to speak with a supervisor. He promised to call me in 24 hours and help me reset everything on my account and make sure I wouldn't have anymore issues from here on.
    Well, he was nice, and trying to help, and it's really not his fault personally so I'll give it a shot, however, as soon as I have access to my iTunes, I will be retrieving everything and saving it to an external hard drive.

    Because I do expect more problems. And if I'm right, I'm leaving Apple permanently. I will be selling all my Apple products.
    I'm happy with my Blackberry phone, I have no idea what I will get for a laptop, and I will be getting a Passport in september so I can at least have a phablet of some sort.
    Because frankly, if Apple is going to give me such BS to protect me from myself, it's not worth it. I'd rather make do with less and not be forced to jump through hoops for the privilege of getting screwed every 5 minutes.

    Yes, I'm irate, damn it. And thank you for letting me vent.
  2. #2  
    Andrew Lima's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    I can see that being very discouraging. But is leaving Apple something you'll stand by for time to come? Just make sure that using Blackberry isn't simply your second option because I promise, you'll soon regret it. However, if you're happy with your BB and see yourself content with it in the future, then good for you!

    I'm just saying, you really shouldn't pick your products based on an inkling of trouble, and not very helpful support. You must have gotten a newer rep, because I've had nothing but great experiences with Customer Service when it comes to Apple.

    Let's also not forget that you couldn't correctly answer your own security questions. There's also the possibility that when changing your password, you may have typed one character wrong. Either way, I'm sorry you're having so much trouble with so simple a problem.

    I hope you're able to make the best decision for yourself regarding which phone, as well as get this issue resolved as soon as possible.
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  3. #3  
    Karenkcoulter's Avatar

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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Vent away…
    But as far as I'm concerned it is your responsibility to keep things like your security questions up to date. So although I agree it is frustrating, I think some of the blame lies with you.
    FYI I've also never had my iTunes account hacked, but I get promoted to change my password every three months or so with 1 upper, 1 lower, 1 number and 1 symbol, at least 8 characters long and not one of the past ten passwords. And I have 2-factor Authentication turned on.

    Anyway, as with any decision that involves money, I'd hold off on making a decision to leave Apple until you calm down. Then if that's still your decision, ok.
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  4. Thread AuthorThread Author   #4  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Karenkcoulter View Post
    Vent away…
    But as far as I'm concerned it is your responsibility to keep things like your security questions up to date. So although I agree it is frustrating, I think some of the blame lies with you.
    FYI I've also never had my iTunes account hacked, but I get promoted to change my password every three months or so with 1 upper, 1 lower, 1 number and 1 symbol, at least 8 characters long and not one of the past ten passwords. And I have 2-factor Authentication turned on.

    Anyway, as with any decision that involves money, I'd hold off on making a decision to leave Apple until you calm down. Then if that's still your decision, ok.
    I typed my password correctly. And I did have 2 factor authentication: I answered one security question and I gave all my devices serial numbers to the rep. So yes, I missed one question.
    And for that, I get locked out of my account for 24 hours???

    Again, the irony really gets to me: All the measures in place to protect me from myself while giving the NSA full access.

    I did love the convenience of Apple... back when it didn't require a virtual DNA sample to access my own account. I'll see what this guy has to say tomorrow but seriously this is ridiculous. They're using a thermo nuclear device to swat a fruit fly, for Pete's sake.
  5. #5  

    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    I've never run in to that problem either. But if I did, I would be frustrated like you. But I wouldn't go so far as to ditch Apple. That seems a bit much. Give yourself time to cool down and think. Apple is number 1 in security for a reason. I like their security methods. Siri said she feels safe!


    Sent from from my ancient but trustworthy iPhone 5
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  6. #6  
    Andrew Lima's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    I typed my password correctly. And I did have 2 factor authentication: I answered one security question and I gave all my devices serial numbers to the rep. So yes, I missed one question.
    And for that, I get locked out of my account for 24 hours???

    Again, the irony really gets to me: All the measures in place to protect me from myself while giving the NSA full access.

    I did love the convenience of Apple... back when it didn't require a virtual DNA sample to access my own account. I'll see what this guy has to say tomorrow but seriously this is ridiculous. They're using a thermo nuclear device to swat a fruit fly, for Pete's sake.
    Apple is a very popular company for a reason. They can be trusted. Apple themselves is not to blame for any of this. They are not locking you out of your account because they have a personal vendetta against you. I'm telling you, you did type the wrong password at some point in time, they would not lock you out for having the correct password, and it certainly did not reset itself. And further than that, you can't answer one of your security questions correctly. A 24 hour wait is not so bad compared to what could have happened.

    You should wait the period of time, and take that supervisor up on his offer of helping you out with your account. Get all of this situated, and in the future, maybe write down your answers to the security questions, and possibly double check your inputted passwords.

    Again, good luck with your dilemma. And as Karenk said, maybe make a decision when you're not so upset.
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  7. Thread AuthorThread Author   #7  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Oh I'm definitely giving this guy a shot, I mean, what choice do I have? But this morass is unnecessary and frankly 24 hours for one lousy security question when I gave the other one correctly plus all the serial numbers for my macbook, iPad and Itouch is overkill. They told me I had confirmed my identity and they were satisfied with that, yet I'm still going to wait 24 hours to reset so I can access my account??? Come on, now.
  8. #8  
    JustMe'D's Avatar

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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    Oh I'm definitely giving this guy a shot, I mean, what choice do I have? But this morass is unnecessary and frankly 24 hours for one lousy security question when I gave the other one correctly plus all the serial numbers for my macbook, iPad and Itouch is overkill. They told me I had confirmed my identity and they were satisfied with that, yet I'm still going to wait 24 hours to reset so I can access my account??? Come on, now.
    I'm with you here. If they stated that they had "confirmed" your identity then I agree that you shouldn't have to wait, especially not 24 hours.
  9. #9  
    charlyee's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    It can be very frustrating without a doubt.

    I am guessing that they are checking the serial numbers that you gave to ensure they are registered to you and not blacklisted or something, hence the 24 hours.

    I did get locked out of my account in the process of changing my Apple ID but I don't remember having to wait 24 hours. I have been very careful since then.

    24 hours isn't that long, you could always try calling again and see if a different person is more sympathetic.

    I wouldn't change all my devices because of one person or a policy.

    Good luck hope everything works out for you.

    Sent from my XT1058
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  10. #10  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    I typed my password correctly. And I did have 2 factor authentication: I answered one security question and I gave all my devices serial numbers to the rep. So yes, I missed one question.
    And for that, I get locked out of my account for 24 hours???

    Again, the irony really gets to me: All the measures in place to protect me from myself while giving the NSA full access.

    I did love the convenience of Apple... back when it didn't require a virtual DNA sample to access my own account. I'll see what this guy has to say tomorrow but seriously this is ridiculous. They're using a thermo nuclear device to swat a fruit fly, for Pete's sake.
    You're mad, but they're doing their jobs, which is taking security seriously. People get mad when they call banks and have them answer so many questions so they can confirm it's really the person they claim to be. Do you want them to stop doing that? To give you everything you asked for after you get some questions wrong (and don't know the password to your own account). Plus you have 2 factor turned on, which only makes it that much harder for "outsiders" to gain access.

    In some ways, you're lucky they're even trying to restore your account and waste time with someone whom they haven't concretely proven they are who they say they are. Especially when 2 factor authentication is turned on, simply forgetting your own credentials and failing to keep backup codes safe somewhere often results in not getting your account back. It's a little over the edge, but that's what people sign up for if they want max security possible. Imagine... You can't access your own account.. Imagine someone else!

    Go to BlackBerry if you want. No idea why you would go that route. I came from that route (had a Z10, and countless BB devices, including the playbook, before then). Got an android phone a windows computer and an iPad air. The point? BB stinks, that's just my honest opinion formulated after experience using devices of pretty much every other platform. Take it or leave it. You're obviously irritated by your situation but don't make any knee jerk reactions. You have to justify and rationalize first, instead of blowing up with anger. Your head isn't clear, that's normal, but realize that and think about it before you make a decision you might regret. If you do that and decide to go to BB, fine. But we all already told you so.

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  11. #11  
    Speedygi's Avatar

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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Blackberry is fine, but don't expect the platform to be as fully featured or app filled as Android, especially Android. Because if you see things like Qi Wireless charging and pebble integration on Android, it dwarfs the merits of Blackberry's operating system. It shows how important having a headstart and developer support is so important for a platform to succeed.
    Wrote pretty much every single word while listening to iRon Maiden
  12. Thread AuthorThread Author   #12  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by agp101 View Post
    You're mad, but they're doing their jobs, which is taking security seriously. People get mad when they call banks and have them answer so many questions so they can confirm it's really the person they claim to be. Do you want them to stop doing that? To give you everything you asked for after you get some questions wrong (and don't know the password to your own account). Plus you have 2 factor turned on, which only makes it that much harder for "outsiders" to gain access.

    In some ways, you're lucky they're even trying to restore your account and waste time with someone whom they haven't concretely proven they are who they say they are. Especially when 2 factor authentication is turned on, simply forgetting your own credentials and failing to keep backup codes safe somewhere often results in not getting your account back. It's a little over the edge, but that's what people sign up for if they want max security possible. Imagine... You can't access your own account.. Imagine someone else!

    Go to BlackBerry if you want. No idea why you would go that route. I came from that route (had a Z10, and countless BB devices, including the playbook, before then). Got an android phone a windows computer and an iPad air. The point? BB stinks, that's just my honest opinion formulated after experience using devices of pretty much every other platform. Take it or leave it. You're obviously irritated by your situation but don't make any knee jerk reactions. You have to justify and rationalize first, instead of blowing up with anger. Your head isn't clear, that's normal, but realize that and think about it before you make a decision you might regret. If you do that and decide to go to BB, fine. But we all already told you so.

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    You know, the "security" angle is a bunch of BS: They have opened a backdoor for the NSA to access any data they want without customer knowledge or consent, come on, now. And when I mentioned this to the people I spoke with, (3 of them total) none of them denied that.

    The thing is, I really do like my Apple products: Macbook Air, iPad Air, iPod Touch, all work really well and meet my needs.
    But this tap-dancing I have to do because of one lousy question, after being told I had successfully proven my identity (by giving all 3 devices serial numbers and answering the 2nd question correctly) is nonsense.

    If I have proven my identity to their satisfaction, then why keep me locked out for 24 hours?
  13. #13  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    You know, the "security" angle is a bunch of BS: They have opened a backdoor for the NSA to access any data they want without customer knowledge or consent, come on, now. And when I mentioned this to the people I spoke with, (3 of them total) none of them denied that.

    The thing is, I really do like my Apple products: Macbook Air, iPad Air, iPod Touch, all work really well and meet my needs.
    But this tap-dancing I have to do because of one lousy question, after being told I had successfully proven my identity (by giving all 3 devices serial numbers and answering the 2nd question correctly) is nonsense.

    If I have proven my identity to their satisfaction, then why keep me locked out for 24 hours?
    The 'backdoor' story is an erroneous article that has since been debunked. The Apple backdoor that wasn't | ZDNet

    Reading your posts, I think you need to step away from your computer as you are clearly very angry and seem to take issue with anyone who takes a contrary position to you on this forum.

    If you wish to go to Blackberry then go for it. The problem as I see it is you are making a decision when you are angry and you should never make a purchasing decision when angry, you will always regret it.

    Equally, but less relevant, never shop when hungry, never drive when angry, never get involved in a land war in Asia and never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.
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  14. #14  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    You know, the "security" angle is a bunch of BS: They have opened a backdoor for the NSA to access any data they want without customer knowledge or consent, come on, now. And when I mentioned this to the people I spoke with, (3 of them total) none of them denied that.
    You keep bringing up that debunked article in your argument. Sounds more like you're looking for a reason to poo poo on Apple.
    You forgot your passwords and security information? Your fault.
    Forget them on another platform and see what happens.
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  15. #15  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Dam.. Another minute wasted reading this post!


    Sent from my Darth Vader black iPhone 5 using iMore Forums
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  16. Thread AuthorThread Author   #16  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    No, I'm not looking for a "reason", and as I've stated earlier, the manager I spoke with said he'd call me back today at 1 pm and help me sort this out, and I will give him a chance because believe me, my life will be a lot simpler if I can stay on the Apple platform.
    However, this is not a process I'm willing to go through again.
    To forget my password may be my fault, but for Apple to refuse to send me a reset link for 24 hours after they said I had successfully established my identity with them is overkill.
    I'll be dealing with it today because I have no other choice but that is the last time and should this happen again, Or if the process today turns out to be more trouble than it's worth, I will be going to another platform.
    Apple is turning into those banks that won't let customers have access to their own funds for several days and limits the amount of money that they can withdraw "for their own protection".



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  17. #17  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    No, I'm not looking for a "reason", and as I've stated earlier, the manager I spoke with said he'd call me back today at 1 pm and help me sort this out, and I will give him a chance because believe me, my life will be a lot simpler if I can stay on the Apple platform.
    However, this is not a process I'm willing to go through again.
    To forget my password may be my fault, but for Apple to refuse to send me a reset link for 24 hours after they said I had successfully established my identity with them is overkill.
    I'll be dealing with it today because I have no other choice but that is the last time and should this happen again, Or if the process today turns out to be more trouble than it's worth, I will be going to another platform.
    Apple is turning into those banks that won't let customers have access to their own funds for several days and limits the amount of money that they can withdraw "for their own protection".



    Sent from my iPad using iMore Forums
    I am surprised that you are with Apple, considering the posts you have on another forum:

    "Apple would have to pay my mortgage and fund my retirement for me to consider going back, lol.
    Because the customer service they dished out following IOS7 was so poor, there is no way they could compare to the customer service I've gotten with Samsung.
    So yes, there was definitely a learning curve, there still is.
    But for me, adapting is key to moving on and I refuse to stay stuck in the Apple straight jacket."

    "My iPhone, Ipad and Ipod touch had gotten completely crippled by IOS7.
    I could no longer get or send out emails, my calendars were un synced, all my notes were lost and a whole bunch of apps stopped working.
    I did the whole factory reset thing several times, nothing worked.
    My devices were also slowed to a crawl, pages loaded partially if at all.
    After several unsuccessful trips to the genius bar, they finally told me that it was my fault, I was using the devices wrong.
    So I went to best buy to get my Note 3 and got fabulous customer service from Samsung to set it up.
    A couple of months later I got my Note Pro and again, Samsung helped me with any problem I had.
    There's no going back for me.
    I still have hiccups mostly due to my being a complete techtard, but I'm learning.
    And I love my note devices.
    I could do without google intrusive style but I'll put up with it."

    So, are you Apple or Samsung?
    Last edited by pappy53; 07-25-2014 at 01:16 PM.
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  18. #18  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Aha! I thought that name sounded familiar. Well on that "other" forum they are "dissing" Samsung/Android and claims to have a BB10.

    Yes do tell us evilguppy, what devices you truly have?


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  19. #19  

    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    I find it extremely ironic that there would be so much being said against Apple's security posture from someone so concerned with the NSA and the erroneous and farcical reports of Apple's relationship with the NSA. The two positions just don't mesh.

    OP - you forgot your password/security question. Your mistake. Mistakes happen. Own up to that.

    A year or so ago Apple caught all kinds of grief from someone whose account was hacked. It is possible that their new procedures are in response to that incident. If this happened to me, I would 1) acknowledge that it was my mistake that precipitated the whole drama 2) thank Apple for maintaining the integrity of my account.

    If Apple's procedures for getting you access to your account are so egregious to you that you feel you must leave Apple for BlackBerry, then you must do what is best for you. With them, that customer service call will cost you $50.00. With BlackBerry, there will be no Genius Bar appointment to be had. And with them, if you forget your BlackBerry ID, password, and security question, you will have no recourse because they have no recovery and your Q10 will be a nice brick. But I'm sure you know that and those details are not important. So do what you feel is correct for you. I'm sure that I will read of your decision on Crackberry.

    Oh....by the way....did you know that the NSA cracked BlackBerry's famous security? Might want to research that......
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  20. Thread AuthorThread Author   #20  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Yep, I really, REALLY did not want to go back to Apple, that is true.
    And I did, by getting an iPad Air, because when I broke my Note Pro, I found out what it would take for me to get it replaced. With Apple care, it's 80 bucks, no problem there.

    Also, after biting the bullet and purchasing my iPad Air, I did get an unexpected surprise:
    The lousy customer service I had experienced a year or 2 prior, and which had caused me to leave Apple, was greatly improved.
    I got fabulous help to set up my device, I had problems with Apple ID (not password related) and a manager went so far as to do a screen share with me on the phone, which, when implemented, showed him my macbook screen on his monitor, enabled him to put little red arrows in every place that I needed to click, taking me on a visual step by step route to get the problem taken care of.
    It took a while, but it was successful and damn, that was cool.

    Guys... Please continue because with every rebuke I read, I am able to see the cool Apple things I came back for, and that is very useful to me.

    I still hate the over the top security nonsense. To me, it's counter productive.
    But as I've said several times before, there are very cool things about Apple that I need.
    So do I want to leave Apple?
    Again, I'd rather not.
    But if this issue I'm having is going to be a recurring problem, I don't think I have a choice.

    Now the question is:
    Though I will try to reset my password to something I can actually remember (I'm pretty sure I did, even if everyone here tells me otherwise... ) it would be idiotic for me to write it down somewhere, that would defeat the purpose of "security".

    So is there a way to keep passwords secure somewhere where I can access it in case I forget?
  21. #21  

    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!





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    "When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" ~Socrates
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  22. #22  
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    You know, the "security" angle is a bunch of BS: They have opened a backdoor for the NSA to access any data they want without customer knowledge or consent, come on, now. And when I mentioned this to the people I spoke with, (3 of them total) none of them denied that.

    The thing is, I really do like my Apple products: Macbook Air, iPad Air, iPod Touch, all work really well and meet my needs.
    But this tap-dancing I have to do because of one lousy question, after being told I had successfully proven my identity (by giving all 3 devices serial numbers and answering the 2nd question correctly) is nonsense.

    If I have proven my identity to their satisfaction, then why keep me locked out for 24 hours?
    Idk if the whole NSA thing has been debunked or not, but for the sake of argument let's say the NSA thing is true.

    My post still stands, because while the NSA might have backdoors, regular people do not. So for example, if your device was stolen, or someone figured out your password but didn't have the 2 step verification code etc... They wouldn't be able to get into your account if they had gone through the same channels you are going through. I think that's the whole point of the security thing.

    The NSA and government entities, we have pretty much little to no control over that, if in fact nefarious acts do take place. But an equal damaging scenario is someone else, a regular citizen or a thief, taking over your account, and thus ALL your Apple products after they successfully change your password etc, essentially locking you out.

    So yes, while maybe the procedures Apple took (or banks take and many other entities) anger and frustrate you, they work very well for exactly that. If they didn't do that, lots of people would have so many more problems lol. You're buying $500+ devices, you want to be sure only YOU will ever have access. While some security measures are drastic, they do work. It's hard to have the best of both worlds. But it's nice knowing your device (and account) will most likely always be yours unless you specifically chose to sell said device and move your account over to a new and shiny $500+ device

    I understand your frustration, hope you feel better after a little cooling off time. I'm sure you're not the only one getting frustrated, but the process works overall.

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  23. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evilguppy View Post
    Yep, I really, REALLY did not want to go back to Apple, that is true.
    And I did, by getting an iPad Air, because when I broke my Note Pro, I found out what it would take for me to get it replaced. With Apple care, it's 80 bucks, no problem there.

    Also, after biting the bullet and purchasing my iPad Air, I did get an unexpected surprise:
    The lousy customer service I had experienced a year or 2 prior, and which had caused me to leave Apple, was greatly improved.
    I got fabulous help to set up my device, I had problems with Apple ID (not password related) and a manager went so far as to do a screen share with me on the phone, which, when implemented, showed him my macbook screen on his monitor, enabled him to put little red arrows in every place that I needed to click, taking me on a visual step by step route to get the problem taken care of.
    It took a while, but it was successful and damn, that was cool.

    Guys... Please continue because with every rebuke I read, I am able to see the cool Apple things I came back for, and that is very useful to me.

    I still hate the over the top security nonsense. To me, it's counter productive.
    But as I've said several times before, there are very cool things about Apple that I need.
    So do I want to leave Apple?
    Again, I'd rather not.
    But if this issue I'm having is going to be a recurring problem, I don't think I have a choice.

    Now the question is:
    Though I will try to reset my password to something I can actually remember (I'm pretty sure I did, even if everyone here tells me otherwise... ) it would be idiotic for me to write it down somewhere, that would defeat the purpose of "security".

    So is there a way to keep passwords secure somewhere where I can access it in case I forget?
    You can get an app like QBknelt suggested. Personally I like to open a Microsoft Word document, write app passwords in there, then I password protect the Word document and upload it to Google Drive, or whatever cloud service you have set up. This way if ever your PC or Mac falters and you lose your hard drive, at least you won't lose that document. And since you password protect it, we can assume only you will ever have access.

    Do the password apps only work locally on the device? If something happens to the device do you lose everything on the app or are they able to upload it securely to Drive, iCloud, Onedrive?

    Anyway, whatever works best for you.

    Also, note that I do the same exact thing for backup codes for 2 step verification. Those especially, you should never lose!

    Posted via iMore App
    Last edited by agp101; 07-25-2014 at 03:21 PM.
  24. Thread AuthorThread Author   #24  
    Evilguppy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by qbnkelt View Post
    http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/26/mube3y7u.jpg



    Sent from my GORGEOUS, AWESOME Gold 64G iPhone 5s via Tapatalk
    Oh, thanks! *goes off to look it up*

    EDIT: Well... I would have downloaded it on my iTouch except it's asking me for... My Apple ID password, so I'll have to wait until after the tech guy calls me and helps me fix my problem... IF that can be done.
  25. #25  
    reeneebob's Avatar
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    Default Re: ENOUGH!!!

    And if Apple has given access to someone posing as you who also didn't know the answers to their own security questions and you got nailed with fraudulent activity on your account, you'd be piased at Apple for not protecting you more.

    Sorry, dude, this was on you.
    Former BlackBerry Pearl 8130, Curve 8330, Storm 1, Palm Pre, Galaxy S Vibrant, HTC Desire Z, back to Galaxy S, iPhone 4 White 16GB, BB Bold 9900 White (sold), back to iPhone 4, SGS3 Pebble Blue, SGS3 Garnet Red, BlackBerry Z10 White, 16Gb iPhone 5 White
    agp101 likes this.
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