1. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    I figure this will spur some interesting discussion. Given that audiophile's are particular about the sound production of their audio, how do you justify an iDevice to an audiophile? With the lackluster audio properties inside the devices and the inability to make adjustments to the sound it's a hard sell to someone who cares about audio, for a company that claims to love music. It seems Apple alienates the people that enjoy music on a more immersive level. I understand there are apps that offer 5 or 10 band equalizers, it's just that those don't work as well as a true system integrated multi band equalizer. Again, I'm just curious how you would justify this to an audiophile.
    01-21-2017 12:39 PM
  2. Just_Me_D's Avatar
    An audiophile, in my opinion, would know or, at least, should know that listening to audio on an iPhone or any other smart phone will not be the same as listening via dedicated audio equipment, and is not meant to be. With that in mind, the justification for getting an iPhone and listening to music with it is a nonissue.
    SwitchBeach and kataran like this.
    01-21-2017 01:51 PM
  3. Rene Ritchie's Avatar
    I figure this will spur some interesting discussion. Given that audiophile's are particular about the sound production of their audio, how do you justify an iDevice to an audiophile? With the lackluster audio properties inside the devices and the inability to make adjustments to the sound it's a hard sell to someone who cares about audio, for a company that claims to love music. It seems Apple alienates the people that enjoy music on a more immersive level. I understand there are apps that offer 5 or 10 band equalizers, it's just that those don't work as well as a true system integrated multi band equalizer. Again, I'm just curious how you would justify this to an audiophile.

    Convenience is the only argument I could make. Nothing will ever beat live music, so any reproduction is a compromise. With an iPhone, they have a connected player that can store lossless copies of all their media with them all the time. Add a really good headset, and they should be okay.
    01-21-2017 02:23 PM
  4. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Convenience is the only argument I could make. Nothing will ever beat live music, so any reproduction is a compromise. With an iPhone, they have a connected player that can store lossless copies of all their media with them all the time. Add a really good headset, and they should be okay.
    What DAC and wired headphones would you recommend?
    libra89 likes this.
    01-21-2017 02:30 PM
  5. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    An audiophile, in my opinion, would know or, at least, should know that listening to audio on an iPhone or any other smart phone will not be the same as listening via dedicated audio equipment, and is not meant to be. With that in mind, the justification for getting an iPhone and listening to music with it is a nonissue.
    Yes, fair point. I consider myself an audiophile, and most other audiophiles I've come across just avoid Apple products unless it's an iPod Classic that install Rockbox on.

    Convenience is the only argument I could make. Nothing will ever beat live music, so any reproduction is a compromise. With an iPhone, they have a connected player that can store lossless copies of all their media with them all the time. Add a really good headset, and they should be okay.
    Yeah, I just wish it was enough to truly enjoy music. It would nice if Apple allowed FLAC or WAV files though.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-22-2017 01:58 AM
  6. StraightlineBoy's Avatar
    I don't attempt to justify any of my purchases to anyone but myself. Many audiophiles are pretentious and any other means of listening to music other than how they do it will be inferior. Go with what makes you happy and *blows raspberries* to anyone who tries to bring you down.
    01-22-2017 06:17 AM
  7. MG537's Avatar
    Yes, fair point. I consider myself an audiophile, and most other audiophiles I've come across just avoid Apple products unless it's an iPod Classic that install Rockbox on.



    Yeah, I just wish it was enough to truly enjoy music. It would nice if Apple allowed FLAC or WAV files though.
    The Apple Music app doesn't support those formats but other apps do.
    I do believe that if you sync through iTunes on Mac/PC you could get WAV and/or ALAC onto your iDevice.
    Problem with these files is that they're quite big (WAV > FLAC or ALAC) and can only get a limited amount of music on the device.

    Besides iPods/iPhones are meant as portable devices and in order to truly enjoy pure music up to audiophile standards you would need a good DAC and a very good pair of earphones (no, not Bose QC 35's).

    Conclusion, I don't think you can ever convince an audiophile to get an iPhone based on the quality of sound argument.
    01-26-2017 10:41 AM
  8. taylorh's Avatar
    Is Apple lossless inferior to FLAC and WAV somehow? I understand the inconvenience of re-encoding everything, though. But I've done it for a few tracks in the past.
    01-26-2017 10:56 AM
  9. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    Is Apple lossless inferior to FLAC and WAV somehow? I understand the inconvenience of re-encoding everything, though. But I've done it for a few tracks in the past.
    FLAC and ALAC and pretty similar, however WAV is true and pure lossless which gives the best quality digitally.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2017 11:22 AM
  10. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    The Apple Music app doesn't support those formats but other apps do.
    I do believe that if you sync through iTunes on Mac/PC you could get WAV and/or ALAC onto your iDevice.
    Problem with these files is that they're quite big (WAV > FLAC or ALAC) and can only get a limited amount of music on the device.

    Besides iPods/iPhones are meant as portable devices and in order to truly enjoy pure music up to audiophile standards you would need a good DAC and a very good pair of earphones (no, not Bose QC 35's).

    Conclusion, I don't think you can ever convince an audiophile to get an iPhone based on the quality of sound argument.
    Yes WAV is much larger simply because it is truly lossless and uncompressed giving the most accurate digital playback. Even portable you can get good audio quality, and you don't necessarily need really high end earphones or headphones, which would eliminate the need for a really high quality DAC. Really the only Apple NEEDS to do to be more appealing to an audiophile and have more of them using iDevices is to support FLAC and WAV and implement a true system integrated multi-band equalizer.
    01-26-2017 11:26 AM
  11. michaelvosburg's Avatar
    You don't. An audiophile should recognize that the only sound environment they can truly control is their home. Once you go mobile, you will always introduce noise into the listening experience. In most cases, this noise will make a bigger difference than the file format. Sometimes it will even overshadow slight differences in headphones. Mobile listening is about compromises. As Rene says, it is also about convenience. For me, the iPhone makes many things work more seamlessly than other devices. I also appreciate controlling playback with my watch. Again, convenient.
    MG537 likes this.
    01-26-2017 11:39 AM
  12. taylorh's Avatar
    "Truly lossless?" All lossless is truly lossless.
    Yes WAV is truly uncompressed but lossless is lossless. Therefore to answer my own question, any lossless codec is going to reproduce the original sound 100% bit for bit.
    That's what lossless is, no loss of any data.
    Unless there is something else I'm not aware if, that's why I asked the question.
    If you convert Apple lossless back to wav, they should be the identical bits.
    FLAC, ALFAC, wma lossless, Apple lossless are all just compression and containers (for additional data) without losing data integrity.

    So why would an audiophile care about not supporting WAV or FLAC when Apple
    lossless is available. Inconvenience is the one reason I'm aware of.
    Last edited by taylorh; 01-26-2017 at 12:41 PM.
    Laura Knotek and MG537 like this.
    01-26-2017 12:17 PM
  13. MG537's Avatar
    Yes WAV is much larger simply because it is truly lossless and uncompressed giving the most accurate digital playback. Even portable you can get good audio quality, and you don't necessarily need really high end earphones or headphones, which would eliminate the need for a really high quality DAC. Really the only Apple NEEDS to do to be more appealing to an audiophile and have more of them using iDevices is to support FLAC and WAV and implement a true system integrated multi-band equalizer.
    I disagree with you.
    A WAV file being compressed down to FLAC/ALAC doesn't sound any different than the original WAV file.
    They're all lossless formats. It's like taking an MS Word document and zipping it . Once you unzip it, nothing's changed (not the font, not the content).

    AAC and MP3 is different since you are actually removing data from the original. If the sampling rate is high enough, and nowadays it is, then the vast majority of the people on planet earth, will not hear the difference between a well done lossy format and lossless.
    taylorh likes this.
    01-26-2017 12:19 PM
  14. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    Many audiophiles are pretentious and any other means of listening to music other than how they do it will be inferior..
    I couldn't agree more. Some of them try to convince us that the audio coming from a vinyl record is still better.
    01-26-2017 12:36 PM
  15. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    I couldn't agree more. Some of them try to convince us that the audio coming from a vinyl record is still better.
    Vinyl has a different sound signature that's warmer, people prefer that to the colder more analytical sound of digital. It even goes so far as artists recordings too. Slash records on tape because he prefers that sound to a straight digital recording.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2017 12:44 PM
  16. BreakingKayfabe's Avatar
    Vinyl has a different sound signature that's warmer, people prefer that to the colder more analytical sound of digital. It even goes so far as artists recordings too. Slash records on tape because he prefers that sound to a straight digital recording.
    I wish most audiophiles would just say what you said. To say "better" just irritates me.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2017 12:49 PM
  17. metllicamilitia's Avatar
    I wish most audiophiles would just say what you said. To say "better" just irritates me.
    I agree, too many very vocal audiophiles have that attitude. Being an audiophile is just about caring how the audio sounds and being happy with it. Finding the sound signature and quality level to sounds great to you. Audio is as subjective as anything else, there is no right or wrong, or better or worse (except with compression). I myself will either use EarPods and my iPhone or my Shure SE-315's and my Fiio X5, and I use the latter more often.
    01-26-2017 12:58 PM
  18. taylorh's Avatar
    "Sounds better" does not necessarily equal more accurate reproduction of the original sound. Vynil has noise where digital doesn't but that doesn't mean it doesn't still sound better despite that, also digital has no noise but doesn't necessarily sound better.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2017 01:09 PM
  19. StraightlineBoy's Avatar
    Agree completely with the above comments. It's one thing saying you "prefer" to listen to music by a given method, that's fine, it's another when you start telling others what they're doing is wrong. As long you're getting pleasure from your music then you're doing something right.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-26-2017 01:34 PM
  20. sting7k's Avatar
    I figure this will spur some interesting discussion. Given that audiophile's are particular about the sound production of their audio, how do you justify an iDevice to an audiophile? With the lackluster audio properties inside the devices and the inability to make adjustments to the sound it's a hard sell to someone who cares about audio, for a company that claims to love music. It seems Apple alienates the people that enjoy music on a more immersive level. I understand there are apps that offer 5 or 10 band equalizers, it's just that those don't work as well as a true system integrated multi band equalizer. Again, I'm just curious how you would justify this to an audiophile.
    Their opinion of the devices I choose to purchase and use means nothing to me. I would not spend any time attempting to defend my choices. I would also not spend any time putting down their choices.
    Just_Me_D likes this.
    01-26-2017 02:15 PM

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